Excellent point Baashi, And I would agree the document is complex demanding legal expertise, due dilegence and calm composure in its understannding, which is the reason I was putting the questions to Carafaat, the loudest member in the opposing camp.

Again, you are misreading or perhaps intentionally misquoting the constitution. Article 48, sub section 2 provides: (2) No single region can stand alone. Until such time as a region merges with another region(s) to form a new Federal Member State, a region shall be directly administered by the Federal Government for a maximum period of two years. Notice the prerequisite - if there is a region by itself, which cannot join other regions, then yes, the federal gov't can appoint a gov'or, but where there are 3 regions forming a federal member state, the gov't has no business in trying to stymie its progress or impede its formation. Actually by doing what the federal leadership has done in Juba, it risks losing its legitimacy. As for the 'clan conference' you seem to be tossing about as if the end-all, well I will let others from Somaliland, Puntland, Khatumo, Galmudug or even the federal gov't itself respond to that. And a reminder for your benefit, in case it skipped you mind, the federal gov't you are so passionate about was founded by and in a clan conference. Carafaat;934071 wrote: The constitution says Goverment is repsonsible for first two years. Now where in the constitution does it state that a clan conference can establish a State from 3 Somali regions who are still occubied by AL Shabaab .

Carafaat, You do not know that, so let us toss the speculations aside. Ilyria, I have read the constitution way before you started shopping in it. I actually did not ignore any of the sections of the Article, which is the reason I provided the Article in its entirety, but let us move on. You have ignored article 49.1 to 49.5, and are only justifying your little cause here by article 49.6((6) Based on a voluntary decision, two or more regions may merge to form a Federal Member State.) Let us not pontificate, but instead consider the provisions of the Article. a) Without the commission as in sub section 3, b) Without the Federal Member States as in sub section 4, c) Without the federal parliament determining the number and boundaries as in sub section 2, And I will set sub sections 5 and 6 to aside for now. Without these, the federal gov’t is toothless, lacks the needed political clout, and its role is up in the air to be interpreted as non-existence. You would not be suggesting citizens should stay frozen in time and await MPs sitting in Mogadishu to determine their future, do you? If you are, then there are bigger issues than Juba. Nowhere does it state federal member states could not be formed, or have to wait until the government has put its act together. Juba leaders are actually helping the gov’t in doing what they gov’t could not do. As I said, this is not a constitutional argument, but a political and procedural one, and it is for the federal leadership to lead, or get out of the way. Also, existing and emerging Federal Member states have a role, as in sub section 4, and in other Articles where the federal gov’t must consult with member state in all major decision-making and engagements (this is a point not being discussed), but will prove thorny in time. More importantly, the constitution awards the final say to the citizens of the country via the federal parliament (MPs must do what the citizens want), and not political leaders in the executive, which is where I think your argument, tho’ well meaning, loses its marbles. Further, the formation of Federal Member states is up to the citizens as in Article 46, sub section 1, and not up to the gov’t as and when its institutions have been completed and it’d gotten its act together. Now, I must note that the federal gov't has a role and responsibilities none of which had been assumed, and I hope it will in time, but for now it has not, which is a fact we cannot change. It is a gov't which only exists in name, but has no authority over its territories and citizens. As and when it had extended its authority and assumed its role, then we can have that conversation, but for now, it is futile. Now, Juba initiative started under the rein of president Shariif and ahead of the current gov't, and its legitimacy and mandate rests with its citizens. And one more time, as I said, this is a political issue - citizens have won, and the gov't missed a chance to lead. Let me ask you a question: what is your understanding of sub section 4 of Article 49? (4) The number and the boundaries of the districts in a Federal Member State shall be determined by a law enacted by the parliament of the Federal Member State, which must be approved by the House of the People of the Federal Parliament.

Come to think of it, the other thread is more relevant and makes an inetersting reading. I'll put my comments there, and will see there then.

Carafaat, a) I am not Xiin, b) My questions were to you, and not him, c) Just 'cos Xiin and I agree on the principal points on Juba does not mean we are coming from the same angle, or agree on all things politics, d) What is with the grin? Now, give me all you have got in a grown-up sort of way. And do not disappoint. And I will read the thread shortly.

That is what would have been expected from mature, intelligent leaders, but unfortunately this is not so with the current federal leadership in Mogadishu. Eventually tho' they will come around, and then it is up to the Juba leaders to take the lead in bringing the federal institutions to the side.

This was the unfortunate part. opponents of Jubbaland initiative were found inadequately equipped with any valid constitutional arguments, or even able to table an alternative (plausible) political route to the one under way. Empty slogans, and subtle impeachment of the integrity of the leaders of the initiative was all they could come up with.

I was trying to guide you away from the false arguments (constitutionality of the Juba initiative) and to the real points of contention (political configuration of the future federal gov't - centralised federalism vs decentralised federalism), but you come across less interested in those issues engaging in synchronised firefighting bouts. Or is this a case of 'sal fudaydkii lagu xaman jiray reer Waqooyi'. Here is the Article, sections and sub sections, which concern the formation of federal member states. Can you read them ALL at once and calmly, and then let us have a grown-up conversation. if no, good luck with the fire-fighting exercise. Article 49. The Number and Boundaries of the Federal Member States and Districts (1) The number and boundaries of the Federal Member States shall be determined by the House of the People of the Federal Parliament. (2) The House of the People of the Federal Parliament, before determining the number and boundaries of the Federal Member States, shall nominate a national commission which shall study the issue, and submit a report of its findings with recommendations to the House of the People of the Federal Parliament. (3) The nomination of the commission referred to in Clause two shall be preceded by the enactment of a law by the House of the People of the Federal Parliament, which shall define: (a) The responsibilities and powers of the commission; (b) The parameters and conditions it shall use for the establishment of the Federal Member States; © The number of the commissioners, requirements of membership, nomination methods, office tenure, and their remuneration. (4) The number and the boundaries of the districts in a Federal Member State shall be determined by a law enacted by the parliament of the Federal Member State, which must be approved by the House of the People of the Federal Parliament. (5) Federal Member State boundaries shall be based on the boundaries of the administrative regions as they existed before 1991. (6) Based on a voluntary decision, two or more regions may merge to form a Federal Member State. Carafaat;934071 wrote: The constitution says Goverment is repsonsible for first two years. Now where in the constitution does it state that a clan conference can establish a State from 3 Somali regions who are still occubied by AL Shabaab .

More to the point, the debate about the Juba initiave is about the type of federalism Somalia will have: central favoured by the current gov't and its allies vs decentralised embraced by federal member states. The dialogue should have been of a political nature - shape, process and procedure - instead of a constitutional, 'cos the thorny issues are around the political configuraiton of the federal member states, their relationship with the federal gov't, and the influence the federal gov't has over and with the FM states. Unfortunatley it has taken a detour 'cos the federal leaders are amatuers new to the game whereas those heading the Juba initiative (not the visible actors but those pulling the strings from behind the curtain) are heavy weights with much better comprehension of the Somali politics.

There is no problem in expressing reservations if you feel there is something wrong with the process or question the procedure. What I do not understand however is the 'you will soon find out' as if you have received 'waxyi' from heaven. WEhat are your reservations based on?

Well, if he were right I would have, but in this case he is not, therefore I will not take his words for it. instead I will consult the constitution and use my brain. May I suggest then you do not just repeat what others say without much thought into their validity or veracity?

Are you serious? I am raising he question 'cos the PM did not reference the articles which rendered the Juba initiative unconstitutional and we cannot take his word for it unless of course he or anyone on that side of the argument brings forth the relevant articles to have been breached. I have read the document and disagree with his conclusion. So it seems your whole argument against the Juba initiative and its being unconstitutional hings on 'cos the PM said so. You are much worse than I thought.

Aaah, that would explain. So he learnt one or two things in the process. Still a commendable trait to have the sensibility to evolve and be on the right side of history instead of stubbornly sticking to your guns, even when found in the wrong.

Actually I was extending a compliment to your ability to capture in those 3 lines the crux of the issue. Something others sidestepped or ignored.

Interesting - of all the people participating in the debate for or against the Juba initiative is NORF the reasonable one? N.O.R.F;933757 wrote: There is nothing wrong with the creation of Jubbaland. But there is a procedure to create it. Neither the Jubbaland admin nor the government are following that procedure. This lack of adeherence to that 'legal' procedure will come back and haunt one or both parties.

It is surprising when young people who should know better fail to make use of their utilities. He keeps using the word 'dawladdiid' without thinking much thinking about. I wonder if he asked himself why are people rallying against this president but not Shariif Ahmed?

In my school days when we saw someone with loose scruples and naughty personality we used to say 'khad buu cabay', which later became 'faraxal buu cabay'. This might be case with this gentleman. malistar2012;933942 wrote: sxb somali nation will not fall for Puntlanders shady agenda we know who you niggas are whether in the Parliament or not dawldiid elements and clan agenda tricks are over.

It is easy to shout it is unconstitutional from the roof tops, but can you reference which articles of the constitution had been breached? unless of course you are just using that line to advance an argument which has no legs to stand on. Again do you know which articles or sections of the constitution which had been violated? Carafaat;933742 wrote: Jubbaland is unconstitutional. That is the judgement of the recently formed Somali goverment.

So if we are to go by your rationale then war must be waged against Somaliland and Puntland. Is that so, or are these two sacred? Again, if we go by your rationale then we must slaughter, the resultant of war, Somalis in 3/4ths of the republic just so in your mind Somalia is saved? Please explain your thought process. Carafaat;933320 wrote: Kismayo, Gedo, Lower and Middle Jubba are the one of the most divers regions in Somalia. In 2012 Kenyan(Somalia second arch enemy) army entered illegaly and without any legal justification Somalia's territory. Kenya's plan was to create a bufferzone region within the Jubba region of Somalia. The Kenyan goverment is the mastermind and financier of Jubbaland. The Somali goverment defending the rights of all Somalis and the interest of Somalia, has voiced its opinion against the current Kismayo conference to establish Jubbaland. Nontheless Kenya and its Somali agents decided to proceed with the shir and are planning to declare Jubbaland , without the blessing of the Somali people and the Somali goverment. Therefor we should consider Jubbaland as a declaration of war against the Somali people, choosing the side and Interest of Kenya.

I would agree 'qab' iyo 'han' died log ago with the nation. In their place, Somalis have adopted 'baryo' and 'buufis'. I was however referring to the lazy reference in the quote.

Actually I would venture so far as to agree with that depiction of the typical Somali man.

Of the tribes in Jubaland the Somali are by far the most important. In the whole of East Africa there are two branches of the Somali, the Darud and the Ishaak. The former only is represented in Jubaland. The Dirr and Haweyeh tribes, largely represented in Italian territory and slightly in Jubaland, though called Somali are really the aborigines of the Benidir coast, and are in no way co-tribal with the Somali, with whom they seldom intermarry. The Somali report that about 700 years ago an Arab sheik, Ismail Juberti by name, having been outlawed, fled from his country in a dhow. He landed on the Benidir coast near Hobia (or Obbia), but the Haweyeh, who then lived in the neighbourhood, refused him hospitality, so eventually he joined the Dirr tribe. From this tribe he married a wife by whom he had five sons. From one of these, named Darud Juberti, the Darud Somali are descended. The Marehxx Somali claim to be descended from Essa, a son of the above-named Darud Juberti; while the H3rti and Ogad3n Somali claim descent from Kablalla Darud, another of his sons. The Marehxx, Ogad3n, and H3rti Somali are all strongly represented in Jubaland. The Marehxx tribe occupy the north-east part in the neighbourhood of Serenleh and Dolo. From Italian territory they have emigrated into Jubaland during the last twenty years, and are still inclined to be turbulent. They are possessors of large numbers of camels, and of horses also in lesser number, but, unlike the Ogad3n, they do not rear cattle extensively. Probably their numbers do not exceed 5000. The H3rti Somali occupy the coast and extend inland as far as the Deshek Wama. Of the three sub-tribes of the H3rti, the Midjertein are the most numerous in Jubaland, while the Wasengeleh are but few in number and the D3lbahanta still remain to the east of the Juba. The H3rti do business as traders as well as rear cattle. Their numbers are about 3000. The Og3den Somali are split up into ^Ye important sub-tribes, the Mohamed Zubeir, the Aulihan, the Abd Wak, the Abdullah, and the Magharbul. Two other sub-tribes are of less importance, namely, the Her Mohamed and the Habr Suliman. It is remarkable that the so-called Mad Mullah, Mohamed Abdullah Hassan, belongs to the very unimportant tribe of the Habr Suliman. Of the Ogad3n in Jubaland the Mohamed Zubeir are the most influential and numerous. They occupy the Afmadu district as far south as the Deshek Wama, and own immense quantities of cattle. The Aulihan tribe frequent the district to the west and south of Serenleh. They are rich in camels as well as cattle, and the Juba river is their main water-supply. The Abd Wak and the Abdullah tribes occupy the districts of Rauiaadi and Lorian. The latter of these tribes wander as far as the Tana river seeking for water in the dry season. The Abd Wak are the more numerous, and might be able to put 1000 spearmen and riflemen in the field. Between these two above-mentioned tribes and the Mohamed Zubeir tribe there is a constant feud which sometimes leads to a fight. The Magharbul sub-tribe occupies the sub-district to the east of Rama-adi, known as Joreh. Though they are not strong numerically, yet they are rich in cattle. It is, perhaps, necessary to repeat that only Darud Somali are to be found in Jubaland, while the Ishaak Somali have remained east of the Juba, and that the Haweyah, the Dirr, and some other tribes are not really Somali, but are disowned as inferior races by the Somali. The true Somali is an extremely lazy person, for his dignity does not permit him to do manual work ; he generally employs himself in watching his flocks, or he will lie for hours under a shady tree, his praying-mat and water-bottle beside him, while he drones, to a sort of chant, songs about his former fights and about the stock he has looted. The manual work, meanwhile, is left to the women and the dependants. The Somali is a Mussulman of the Shujai sect and is very religious in his own fashion. In appearance the Somali is an Arab, and sometimes a handsome Arab. Treat him with confidence and consideration, he is cheeri'ul, intelligent, willing to learn, and true to his code of honesty. Treat him harshly or unjustly, he becomes sulky, obstinate, mutinous, and dangerous. He is an excellent scout, a wonderful marcher, and very proud if confidence is shown in him. It would be fatal to the peace of the country if the Somali should be treated with that contempt which is often shown to the black races by Europeans. Jubaland is fast filling with the Somali, who are increasing in numbers by leaps and bounds. Their camels, herds, and flocks are also multiplying in number. Except along the bank of the Juba, it can never be an agricultural country, lack of rain forbids it, but there is no reason why the trade of the country should not vastly improve if roads were made, and especially if a light railway were constructed from Kismayu northward through Afmadu to the Abyssinian frontier.

Kismayu, which may be considered as the capital of Jubaland, possesses a well-protected roadstead. It contains about 4000 inhabitants?consisting of Somali, a few Indian traders, and Barjun. ? It exports hides, maize, and cotton; it imports manufactured articles, especially cotton cloth of all descriptions. The trade at present is mostly in the hands of Khojas from Bombay. The goods are principally made in Hindustan or America. Very few British-made articles reach the country. As the seat of the Government, it is the residence of a few English officials. Gobwein (" large plain "), 2 miles from the Juba mouth, is a village of about 2000 inhabitants. Yonti, 12 miles from Gobwein, is also situated on the Juba river. It is a military cantonment. Near this village an English company has commenced the cultivation of cotton. The Juba river district reaches from the junction of the Juba and the Daua rivers to Yonti. The right bank is under British rule; the left is in Italian territory. From the village of Dolo, where the Daua and Juba unite, as far down the river as Serenleh (a British military post), the district is wild and uncultivated. From Serenleh to Mfudu the bank immediate to the river is covered by a dense forest. The timber, how? ever, is not of a valuable kind, though here and there rubber-vine may be found. From Mfudu to Yonti the bank is under cultivation by the Wa- Gosha tribes. The productions are maize and simsim. In this neighbourhood the Government have established an experimental farm. The Juba river district, with its richly fertile soil, should have a great future as a cotton-growing country. The Wa-Gosha are a confederacy of several tribes bound together for mutual protection against the Somali. The most important of the tribes are Wa-Zugoa, Yao, Wa-Swaheli, Wa-Gendu, and Mushunguli. All these tribes consist of fugitive slaves from the Somali, and they have taken refuge from their masters in the thick bush on the river-bank. Here at first they lived among the Boni tribe, to whom they gave presents as a kind of tribute. When the Wa-Gosha became more in number this tribute was refused and a fight ensued, in which the Boni were beaten and their chief killed. The Wa-Gosha then settled down, in spite of constant warfare with the Somali. This district under English supervision has an increasing population of agricultural people. They are Mohammedans. They do not attempt to keep any stock except a few goats; this is owing to the large number of tsetse fly in the bush aroimd the swamps which are formed when the river rises in flood. The district of Afmadu, sometimes called Bhoji, lies to the north-west of Kismayu at a distance of about 100 miles. It is a plain having thickets of bush separating grassy park-like spaces. The only permanent water-supply is at the Somali settlement of Afmadu, where there are 114 wells, many of which are now disused. The wells are in the dry riverbed of the Lak Dera, but by whom they were constructed cannot be determined. Certainly they were not made by the Somali who now use them. The heavy rains flood the country during October and November, leaving numerous small swamps, and thus a greater part of the district, where it is not covered with bush, is able to support vast herds of cattle even during the two dry seasons. This tract of country is the headquarters of the powerful Ogad3n Somali, many of whose chieftains are wealthy in cattle and camels. Ox-skins are the principal trade, and are sent to Kismayu for shipment. The district of Eil Wak and of Wajheir have been lately described by Lieut. Aylmer. They lie on the northern boundary of Jubaland. Eil Wak (Demon Well or Well of Wak) is occupied by the Tufi Borana. Wajheir has numerous wells, and is peopled by a mixture of Borana, Gurreh, and Somali. Caravans of camels from Kismayu pass through these districts on their way to the Abyssinian border. It is from these caravans, returning from Abyssinia, that the Somali obtain modern rifles and ammunition. As in the Afmadu district, so in the Wajheir district, there are iminense herds of cattle. The Lorian district is populated by the Talamuga Ogad3n Somali, and the Borana, yet thinly owing to want of rain and the number of places abounding in tsetse fly. In other respects it is similar to the Afmadu district.

The marriage customs of the Boni are very simple. When a young man wants a wife he goes hunting until he kills an elephant, of which the one tusk is for his Somali superio* and the other he exchanges for cloth. The cloth is given to the girl's father, and if it is sufficient in quantity she becomes his wife. In intelligence the Boni are superior to the Barjun, but not equal to the Gala or the Somali. Their language, which is at present unwritten, somewhat resembles that of the Somali, yet the difference is too great for mutual understanding. It is noteworthy that a small settlement of Boni, living on the banks of the Juba, have begun to cultivate maize. It is difficult to estimate the number of Boni now living in Jubaland, but probably they do not exceed a thousand. This interesting tribe, who may possibly be the aborigines of the country, are rapidly decreasing in numbers, and in a few years will probably be extinct or merged among the Somali, whose missionaries are busily employed in converting them from Paganism to Mohammedanism. At Arnoleh is the only settlement of the Gala tribe in Jubaland, though they are to be found scattered among the Somali throughout the whole country. Monseigneur Taruin Cahaigne, of Harrur in Abyssinia, has suggested, according to Oolonel Swayne, that this tribe had their original local habitation in Tanaland. It would appear more probable, from inquiries made from the Gala themselves, that their tribe came from the north of Italian Somaliland, whence they were driven by the more powerful Somali; and that they first took refuge in Jubaland and after? wards in Tanaland, where a large settlement of them still exists. Northern Somaliland can show many cairns of Gala origin, but in Jubaland I have found not one. It appears that, after being driven across the Juba by the Somali, the Gala took possession of the country to the west of that river. About 1842 the Somali crossed the Juba, attacked the Gala, and were defeated with great loss. These attacks were con? tinued until 1845, when tbe Somali offered peace on condition that they should be allowed to inhabit Jubaland side by side with the Gala. The Gala foolishly consented to this. In 1848 the Somali treacherously broke the agreement, and drove the Gala south ward and westward. Many of them were starved into servitude under the Somali, and are now employed in considerable numbers as herdsmen in the Ogad3n country. The Gala are mostly Pagans, but lately a considerable number of them have become converts to Mohammedanism. Their marriage customs do not include the giving of a dowry, and their conjugal morality is very lax. In intelligence they compare unfavourably with the Somali; nevertheless they are a courageous and usually self-restraining race, yet subject to violent fits of excitement when sufficiently provoked. As traders and hunters they are more skilful than a Somali, but not equal to the Boni. The Kismayu district may be said to extend from the coast northward to the Deshek Wama lake, and on the east it is bounded by the Juba river.

The district of Bama-adi, including the sub-district of Joreh, contains a group of flat-topped low hills on which a fairly plentiful quantity of rain usually falls during the year. This water, draining into the swamps mentioned above, causes the country to possess valuable feeding-grounds for cattle. Port Durnford is the natural harbour for this district, but at present the trade is undeveloped. Much valuable wild-vine rubber could be obtained from this neighbourhood, but the trade is hindered because the Somali, who dominate the country, are too supine to gather the rubber, and will not suffer the coast tribes, who are not Somali, to collect it. Three sub-tribes of the Ogad3n Somali dominate the Bama-adi district, namely, the Abd Wak, the Magharbul, and the Abdullah. They possess large herds of cattle, but they do not breed camels. The Barjun district coEsists of Port Durnford, the sub-district of Arnoleh, and a series of small islands adjacent to the coast. The natives include the Barjun, the Boni, and the Gala tribes. The Barjun are a race quite distinct from the Somali, and they have their own language and customs. Their local name is Wa-Tikuu. They obtain a living by fishing and marine trading. They claim to be descended from Persian settlers; this is corroborated by the existence in their district of ruined stone houses of distinctly Persian architecture, and also by their light complexion and regular features. The Boni tribe formerly lived in the Gurreh country on the borders of Abyssinia, where their sole occupation was that of hunting. Gradually they spread southward until they reached that part of Jubaland then inhabited by the Gala, who are locally termed the Wurday. With this tribe they made an agreement that they should be allowed to live and hunt in the districts of Afmadu and Deshek Wama, under condition that one tusk of every elephant killed should be handed to the Gala. When the Somali and the Gala began fighting the Boni were neutral, but when the former proved victorious the Boni retired into the thick bush, where for two years they lived on game. Subsequently they made with the Ogad3n Somali a similar arrangement to that which they had formerly made with the Gala, and this arrangement is still carried out. They now have settlements in Arnoleh and the hinterland of Port Durn? ford. In physique they are in no respect like negroes. Oppressed and persecuted by the young Somali, they have become extremely timid and shy of strangers. If a traveller approaches one of their villages, the whole population takes refuge in the thorn bush, where it is quite impossible to track them. Their weapons are bows with poisoned arrows. This poison they obtain from a scarce tree called Wabaiyu, which is a species of Euphorbia. Of late years this tribe has begun to collect the wild rubber around Arnoleh and to barter it with the Barjun in exchange for cloth. In hunting they have remarkable skill, and their knowledge of the bush is wonderful. When water fails them in the bush they watch the birds, and when they see the birds sitting on yak trees in any numbers, their expe? rienee tells them that water will probably be found in the hollows of some of the trees. These yak trees have thick stunted trunks in which large cavities are often to be found. The branches of the trees spring from the circle of living wood round the cavities.