Baashi, Shocking ,eh? How could these politicians not draw some lesson-learned from the past? Traditionally ancient Somalis were known to have squabbled and pickered among themselves, but the minute external forces came to the scene, they used to forge a united front. What happened to that? Xiin - you raised valid points, and I will come back to them as time permits.

For clarity, let me define what I mean by: - Somalia: The republic of Somalia as of July 1, 1960. - Modern trusteeship: Different from post-colonial trusteeship, and meaning a failed state which can only operate with the help of the IC to resurrect its institutions up to a point where it can choose and decide for itself, and for its people.

Valid points tho' I was actually setting that aside 'cos it is subjective with greater latitude, and it is more difficult to convince passionate protagonists of the gov't otherwise until the legal questions had been settled, and then we could move on to the political dialogue which is where the 'misconduct' and the issue of Juba itself could be discussed. For now, antagonists of the Juba initiative are engaging in an unwinnable debate.

Somalia is a modern trusteeship of which affairs are being managed by the international community where its leaders, project manager to be more accurate, have neither the authority nor the capacity to oversee its affairs. Are its citizens aware of that? I wish to come back to develop the argument another day.

Excellent point Baashi, And I would agree the document is complex demanding legal expertise, due dilegence and calm composure in its understannding, which is the reason I was putting the questions to Carafaat, the loudest member in the opposing camp.

Again, you are misreading or perhaps intentionally misquoting the constitution. Article 48, sub section 2 provides: (2) No single region can stand alone. Until such time as a region merges with another region(s) to form a new Federal Member State, a region shall be directly administered by the Federal Government for a maximum period of two years. Notice the prerequisite - if there is a region by itself, which cannot join other regions, then yes, the federal gov't can appoint a gov'or, but where there are 3 regions forming a federal member state, the gov't has no business in trying to stymie its progress or impede its formation. Actually by doing what the federal leadership has done in Juba, it risks losing its legitimacy. As for the 'clan conference' you seem to be tossing about as if the end-all, well I will let others from Somaliland, Puntland, Khatumo, Galmudug or even the federal gov't itself respond to that. And a reminder for your benefit, in case it skipped you mind, the federal gov't you are so passionate about was founded by and in a clan conference. Carafaat;934071 wrote: The constitution says Goverment is repsonsible for first two years. Now where in the constitution does it state that a clan conference can establish a State from 3 Somali regions who are still occubied by AL Shabaab .

Carafaat, You do not know that, so let us toss the speculations aside. Ilyria, I have read the constitution way before you started shopping in it. I actually did not ignore any of the sections of the Article, which is the reason I provided the Article in its entirety, but let us move on. You have ignored article 49.1 to 49.5, and are only justifying your little cause here by article 49.6((6) Based on a voluntary decision, two or more regions may merge to form a Federal Member State.) Let us not pontificate, but instead consider the provisions of the Article. a) Without the commission as in sub section 3, b) Without the Federal Member States as in sub section 4, c) Without the federal parliament determining the number and boundaries as in sub section 2, And I will set sub sections 5 and 6 to aside for now. Without these, the federal gov’t is toothless, lacks the needed political clout, and its role is up in the air to be interpreted as non-existence. You would not be suggesting citizens should stay frozen in time and await MPs sitting in Mogadishu to determine their future, do you? If you are, then there are bigger issues than Juba. Nowhere does it state federal member states could not be formed, or have to wait until the government has put its act together. Juba leaders are actually helping the gov’t in doing what they gov’t could not do. As I said, this is not a constitutional argument, but a political and procedural one, and it is for the federal leadership to lead, or get out of the way. Also, existing and emerging Federal Member states have a role, as in sub section 4, and in other Articles where the federal gov’t must consult with member state in all major decision-making and engagements (this is a point not being discussed), but will prove thorny in time. More importantly, the constitution awards the final say to the citizens of the country via the federal parliament (MPs must do what the citizens want), and not political leaders in the executive, which is where I think your argument, tho’ well meaning, loses its marbles. Further, the formation of Federal Member states is up to the citizens as in Article 46, sub section 1, and not up to the gov’t as and when its institutions have been completed and it’d gotten its act together. Now, I must note that the federal gov't has a role and responsibilities none of which had been assumed, and I hope it will in time, but for now it has not, which is a fact we cannot change. It is a gov't which only exists in name, but has no authority over its territories and citizens. As and when it had extended its authority and assumed its role, then we can have that conversation, but for now, it is futile. Now, Juba initiative started under the rein of president Shariif and ahead of the current gov't, and its legitimacy and mandate rests with its citizens. And one more time, as I said, this is a political issue - citizens have won, and the gov't missed a chance to lead. Let me ask you a question: what is your understanding of sub section 4 of Article 49? (4) The number and the boundaries of the districts in a Federal Member State shall be determined by a law enacted by the parliament of the Federal Member State, which must be approved by the House of the People of the Federal Parliament.

Come to think of it, the other thread is more relevant and makes an inetersting reading. I'll put my comments there, and will see there then.

Carafaat, a) I am not Xiin, b) My questions were to you, and not him, c) Just 'cos Xiin and I agree on the principal points on Juba does not mean we are coming from the same angle, or agree on all things politics, d) What is with the grin? Now, give me all you have got in a grown-up sort of way. And do not disappoint. And I will read the thread shortly.

That is what would have been expected from mature, intelligent leaders, but unfortunately this is not so with the current federal leadership in Mogadishu. Eventually tho' they will come around, and then it is up to the Juba leaders to take the lead in bringing the federal institutions to the side.

This was the unfortunate part. opponents of Jubbaland initiative were found inadequately equipped with any valid constitutional arguments, or even able to table an alternative (plausible) political route to the one under way. Empty slogans, and subtle impeachment of the integrity of the leaders of the initiative was all they could come up with.

I was trying to guide you away from the false arguments (constitutionality of the Juba initiative) and to the real points of contention (political configuration of the future federal gov't - centralised federalism vs decentralised federalism), but you come across less interested in those issues engaging in synchronised firefighting bouts. Or is this a case of 'sal fudaydkii lagu xaman jiray reer Waqooyi'. Here is the Article, sections and sub sections, which concern the formation of federal member states. Can you read them ALL at once and calmly, and then let us have a grown-up conversation. if no, good luck with the fire-fighting exercise. Article 49. The Number and Boundaries of the Federal Member States and Districts (1) The number and boundaries of the Federal Member States shall be determined by the House of the People of the Federal Parliament. (2) The House of the People of the Federal Parliament, before determining the number and boundaries of the Federal Member States, shall nominate a national commission which shall study the issue, and submit a report of its findings with recommendations to the House of the People of the Federal Parliament. (3) The nomination of the commission referred to in Clause two shall be preceded by the enactment of a law by the House of the People of the Federal Parliament, which shall define: (a) The responsibilities and powers of the commission; (b) The parameters and conditions it shall use for the establishment of the Federal Member States; © The number of the commissioners, requirements of membership, nomination methods, office tenure, and their remuneration. (4) The number and the boundaries of the districts in a Federal Member State shall be determined by a law enacted by the parliament of the Federal Member State, which must be approved by the House of the People of the Federal Parliament. (5) Federal Member State boundaries shall be based on the boundaries of the administrative regions as they existed before 1991. (6) Based on a voluntary decision, two or more regions may merge to form a Federal Member State. Carafaat;934071 wrote: The constitution says Goverment is repsonsible for first two years. Now where in the constitution does it state that a clan conference can establish a State from 3 Somali regions who are still occubied by AL Shabaab .

More to the point, the debate about the Juba initiave is about the type of federalism Somalia will have: central favoured by the current gov't and its allies vs decentralised embraced by federal member states. The dialogue should have been of a political nature - shape, process and procedure - instead of a constitutional, 'cos the thorny issues are around the political configuraiton of the federal member states, their relationship with the federal gov't, and the influence the federal gov't has over and with the FM states. Unfortunatley it has taken a detour 'cos the federal leaders are amatuers new to the game whereas those heading the Juba initiative (not the visible actors but those pulling the strings from behind the curtain) are heavy weights with much better comprehension of the Somali politics.

There is no problem in expressing reservations if you feel there is something wrong with the process or question the procedure. What I do not understand however is the 'you will soon find out' as if you have received 'waxyi' from heaven. WEhat are your reservations based on?

Well, if he were right I would have, but in this case he is not, therefore I will not take his words for it. instead I will consult the constitution and use my brain. May I suggest then you do not just repeat what others say without much thought into their validity or veracity?

Are you serious? I am raising he question 'cos the PM did not reference the articles which rendered the Juba initiative unconstitutional and we cannot take his word for it unless of course he or anyone on that side of the argument brings forth the relevant articles to have been breached. I have read the document and disagree with his conclusion. So it seems your whole argument against the Juba initiative and its being unconstitutional hings on 'cos the PM said so. You are much worse than I thought.

Aaah, that would explain. So he learnt one or two things in the process. Still a commendable trait to have the sensibility to evolve and be on the right side of history instead of stubbornly sticking to your guns, even when found in the wrong.

Actually I was extending a compliment to your ability to capture in those 3 lines the crux of the issue. Something others sidestepped or ignored.

Interesting - of all the people participating in the debate for or against the Juba initiative is NORF the reasonable one? N.O.R.F;933757 wrote: There is nothing wrong with the creation of Jubbaland. But there is a procedure to create it. Neither the Jubbaland admin nor the government are following that procedure. This lack of adeherence to that 'legal' procedure will come back and haunt one or both parties.

It is surprising when young people who should know better fail to make use of their utilities. He keeps using the word 'dawladdiid' without thinking much thinking about. I wonder if he asked himself why are people rallying against this president but not Shariif Ahmed?

In my school days when we saw someone with loose scruples and naughty personality we used to say 'khad buu cabay', which later became 'faraxal buu cabay'. This might be case with this gentleman. malistar2012;933942 wrote: sxb somali nation will not fall for Puntlanders shady agenda we know who you niggas are whether in the Parliament or not dawldiid elements and clan agenda tricks are over.

It is easy to shout it is unconstitutional from the roof tops, but can you reference which articles of the constitution had been breached? unless of course you are just using that line to advance an argument which has no legs to stand on. Again do you know which articles or sections of the constitution which had been violated? Carafaat;933742 wrote: Jubbaland is unconstitutional. That is the judgement of the recently formed Somali goverment.

So if we are to go by your rationale then war must be waged against Somaliland and Puntland. Is that so, or are these two sacred? Again, if we go by your rationale then we must slaughter, the resultant of war, Somalis in 3/4ths of the republic just so in your mind Somalia is saved? Please explain your thought process. Carafaat;933320 wrote: Kismayo, Gedo, Lower and Middle Jubba are the one of the most divers regions in Somalia. In 2012 Kenyan(Somalia second arch enemy) army entered illegaly and without any legal justification Somalia's territory. Kenya's plan was to create a bufferzone region within the Jubba region of Somalia. The Kenyan goverment is the mastermind and financier of Jubbaland. The Somali goverment defending the rights of all Somalis and the interest of Somalia, has voiced its opinion against the current Kismayo conference to establish Jubbaland. Nontheless Kenya and its Somali agents decided to proceed with the shir and are planning to declare Jubbaland , without the blessing of the Somali people and the Somali goverment. Therefor we should consider Jubbaland as a declaration of war against the Somali people, choosing the side and Interest of Kenya.

I would agree 'qab' iyo 'han' died log ago with the nation. In their place, Somalis have adopted 'baryo' and 'buufis'. I was however referring to the lazy reference in the quote.

Actually I would venture so far as to agree with that depiction of the typical Somali man.