I'm yet to fully understand Ngonge's argument. He seems to be hiding behind Johnny whilst stating he disagrees with him! Ngonge, give us an earful pal.

Originally posted by Ibtisam: The same argument could be used against taking them to school, work etc. Parents are there to shape their children views, values and beliefs.Sheeko kaal keen meesha. and that is where the coockie crumbles folks :cool:

Originally posted by Northerner: Semis will include: Portugal Germany Holland Spain France are not as good as people think. I don't think they are well oiled with too many individuals. Ze Germans let me down last night. 3 out 4 is still on the cards.

Originally posted by NGONGE: ^^ Heh. How sneaky of you, North. YOU were supposed to answer this question. ps North and Ibti, This is not about arguing with Johnny. He has valid points. It's a public forum. If you don't want to talk to him personally then don't talk to him but you will still have to deal with his well-put argument. Depends how you define a well-put argument

Its not about how Johnny sees things (we know his track record). I'm yet to see a proper argument against the hijab at a young age. Indoctrination and a perceived lack of knowledge on the part of parents (un-provable of course) are not enough. Show me the money and I may just pull my finger out and end this debate.

Originally posted by Johnny B: A view in its own right could be, that religious indoctrination of children as young as 4,5, etc is a vile tool, used by insecure parents against their kids' underdeveloped cognitive abilities. Main reason if not the sole one beeing, to teach the vulnerable children accept the parents' religious doctrines without having to worry about serious challenge of critical thinking. religious indoctrination of children is nothing but a futile attempt to discourage children to question and or challenge the very so called truths in their parents religions, which perverts the future critical thinking skills of these children, hence, religious indoctrination of children is not an education as claimed but the opposite, namely it lays a cognitive hinder in the mindes of those vulnerable children. How many of you adults of today can't rationally reconcile what you been religiousely indoctrinated in as a kid and what you've experienced in real life , yet hold to or value more what you been indoctrinated in? Lastly , children lack the cognitive capacity to completely understand or critically question the information being presented to them with an informed personal opinion, and that is the whole point. Norf, If the answer to your question " why did my beloved father take me to the mosque on a Friday as a 4 year old when I obviously didn't know what was going on? " could be anything but another reason to drag your young ones to the mosque and make the act a cultural virtue that never gets explained. Seriously though, what is the answer and why letting you as a child of 4 do things you din't compeletely understand their real implications is a -must-do-thing? Why bother writing all that if you disagree with a 5 year old ASWELL AS a 25 year old wearing the hijab? To you it doesn't matter when, as you view it as being wrong anyway. Is there any point in explaining to you how kids are/could/should be taught/encouraged at a young age to observe their faith when you left that same faith? It would only be futile could be anything but another reason to drag your young ones to the mosque and make the act a cultural virtue that never gets explained. Speak for yourself mate

I have not been convinced by any of these arguments. Me too

Can't see the Italians losing twice in a row.

Portugal have a good squad. More wingers than strikers but that could actually be more difficult to defend againstas they move all over the pitch.

Italia will grind out a 1-0 and I see a draw for Holland and France. Holland will need to be good on the counter.

Whether a child wears it as a 5 year old, 9 year or 12 year old doesn't really matter. Ngonge, when did you first go to Jumca Prayer? I was about 4 years old and I remember it like it was today! I was looking around whilst in prayer, picking my nose, observing the many faces and other kids who were running around etc etc. I understood very little at that age. Now, why did my beloved father take me to the mosque on a Friday as a 4 year old when I obviously didn't know what was going on? How many kids will you see this summer at Jumca prayers with their fathers/mothers? ps I began to fast at the agae of 6!

Come on Ngonge. Not you aswell,,, :rolleyes: tis friday and I hear its a nice day in Polska, sorry London. What better day is there? Enjoy.

^^LoL

Originally posted by NGONGE: quote:Originally posted by Northerner: ^^Can't they be kids WITH their hijaabs on aswell? Is it holding them back? From what? It is possible that parents who choose to put the hijab on their young children are also expecting these children to act in an 'Islamic' way. You know, not to run because it's not 'ladylike', not to scream because it's 'ceeb', not to mix with boys, etc. The piece of cloth on the head is not the one on trial here, the accompanying expectations are. Anyway, I suspect that for most people that do it, it's just a tradition (with a lazy attempt at religious education). After all, the world is full of simpletons that would put what they perceive as tradition above and beyond anything else. Ps Johnny, again, in his inimitable slightly crass way is putting a very good argument forward. Should you indoctrinate children from a young age or let them find out for themselves? Is it really a case of daddy/mummy knows best? It was a question I threw at the doubters. Hijaab on a young is wrong without so much as an explaination (they are too young is not an explaination) just doesn't wash with me. I need proper 'reasoning' as to why it is wrong. Johnny boy's comments are as per usual limited hence his reliance on toilet humour

^^Can't they be kids WITH their hijaabs on aswell? Is it holding them back? From what?

^^They didn't turn up did they? Tactica were wrong and they had a striker by the name of Gomez who can't do anything right while the guy who plays for Schalke is on the bench! Svinshtiger (sp) was their best player and he was only on the pitch for 20mins! Croatia didn't create much and got a flukey 2nd goal. So far they have played teams with a similar style. Let them play the speed demons of Portugal (unlikely now), Spain or Holland.

I just had a mixed grill kebab with humous. Time for some tea :cool: Good luck all

You have painted all Somali men with the same brush! There are men and then there are MEN :cool:

Can you all leave us alone please? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by NGONGE: I was too old for English schools, North. A fact I regretted for a very long time. I mean, come on, you lucky rascals had GIRLS sitting next to you in class.

me too. time for home and humous.

^^Ngonge may have suffered the same problem

Ibti, do continue. A fabulous place. *stomach churns for humous and laxam*

More CL players in German side. 2-0.

We were not living in London. I moved there after uni and live in: Burnt Oak (Edgware) Isleworth (near Twickenham) Westferry (near Canary Warf) Haringey (near Green Lanes) New Southgate All in the space of 3 years LoL