Xoogsade Posted September 18, 2005 Callypso, I am still confused as to why differing numbers should be viewed, understood to mean, or point to one conclusion. If the numbers 71,72,73 were supposed to mean just "large numbers", don't you think the prophet would have said Muslims will be devided into large numbers as jews and christians were devided into large numbers? A point can seemingly be interesting while it defies logic, and the "may be" thinking can invite too many problems. If it is simple, I don't want to complicate things for me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking Posted September 22, 2005 Salafi Da'wa, Minhaj literally means way doesn't it? Every Prophet was given a "way" of how to guide the people and we follow the minhaj set by the Noble Prophet Muhammad SAWS (Qur'an and Sunnah). Am I wrong in saying this? Xoogsade, You said... Should I assume that the objective was to convey that too many sects will appear and too many people will enter heaven without being tested/questioned? You get to wonder what is the point of quantifying? The Prophet SAWS used the number 71 to describe the division of the Jews, 72 to describe the Christians and 73 to describe Muslims. This means that Christians would be split up in more sects than Jews would and Muslims would be divided more than the Christians. The numbers 71, 72 and 73 are therefore allegorical and not literal figures of the divisions to come. Another question I have for you about the sects, just because each one claims to be a saved sect, should I give them all the benefit of the doubt and treat them all equal in the eyes of islam? to me, their claim means nothing unless they support their views with evidence from islam without deviating the meaning and making it inline with a destorted view of theirs they hold dear. One group will be holding on to what Allah SWT has ordained through the Prophet. Now, I'm not saying that all are (or should be seen) to be correct, neither am I saying which sect is the 'saved' sect. Salafi da'wa has repeatedly pointed out that the Salafi (or Wahabi( are the saved sect. If you converse with a Shi'a Ithna Cashari, he/she would tell you the same thing and that applies to all divisions (otherwise there would be no point in belonging to that particular sect). The prophet is the Only role model I must emulate while others have my respect as fellow muslims and educated scholars and brothers in islam. I agree with you bro, but all Muslims claim to folow the path the Prophet SAWS told us to take. If the numbers 71,72,73 were supposed to mean just "large numbers", don't you think the prophet would have said Muslims will be devided into large numbers as jews and christians were devided into large numbers? They are allegorical as I've stated previously on several occasions. The Qur'an also says that the earth and heavens were created in six days. The Christians take it literally and even went further on to believe that God rested on the 7th day (hence the Sabbath), subhannallah! It is important that we didn't take this literally because ayam actually means 'periods of time' in that particular context. Literalism has its dangers. Callypso, I'm glad you understood what I was getting at. Boqol jeer baan yiri xadiiskas literally yaa loo fahmin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Legend of Zu Posted September 23, 2005 I once heard that Shiekhul Islam Ibn Taymiyah believed that hell is not Eternal but to continue until Maa Shaa Allaahu..can someone Clarify that? Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Xoogsade Posted September 23, 2005 Viking Warkaan waa igu cusub yahay, and that is typical of people like me who don't invest their time in studying what is the most important in their entire universe, their faith. Anyhow, to avoid being dogmatic, I am willing to accept such meaning as allegorical should I find or be shown some sources having the same view from the first three generations of islam. Do you have sources that discuss about this allegorical meanings relating to this Hadiith? Someone must have written their views somewhere for others to share I suppose? I am sure you are not the first to understand this hadith this way. It is an interesting explanation of the Hadith. Such meaning can be handy if we were to find out that the sects outnumber the 73 mentioned although I don't know if these sects were tallied all the way to 73 yet. Looks like someone had the idea and feared that "what if these sects are/become more than 73?", then they may have decided to give an allegorical meaning to the Hadith to avoid such obstacle, good intensions indeed lol. This is my conjecture of course, but I would appreciate if you can direct me to some sources I can read on this. I thought if there was a meaning to some verse or part of it, to some hadith or part of it, other than the obvious literal one, it was clarified and the meaning given already as was the case in some cases. Thanks saxib. Saxib, I can't say for sure that the universe was created in 50,000x6(days). Allah knows best. Besides, God could have created the entire universe and everything in it by saying "Be" and they would have "been" instantly. I hate to swim in a sea I can't swim through if you know what I mean? lool. Nimaan cabsanin waa loo cabsadaa saaxib. I like to keep it to the basics and leave the thinking for others. Earlier muslims can be trusted because the prophet pbuh indicated their goodness. It is safe to refer to them for the fundamental parts of our faith. Thanks bro. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking Posted September 23, 2005 Xoogsade, I don't have any clear reference that I can refer you to that clearly says "do not take this literally/allegorically" or that explains in clarity and depth how the traditions are to be understood. It came to my knowledge that Arabs use the number 70 (i.e. 70, 700, 7000, 70 000 and even 700 000) as you have seen in many traditions to give the idea of a huge number. Ibn Khaldun in The Muqaddimah talks about the narration about dreams being a 70th of prophecy and clearly says that this should not be taken literally and explains the reasons why. More than that I can unfortunately not offer but I would appreciate greatly if someone else could. Saxib, I can't say for sure that the universe was created in 50,000x6(days). Allah knows best. Besides, God could have created the entire universe and everything in it by saying "Be" and they would have "been" instantly. Allah SWT surely has the abilty to say Qun fa ya Qun but The Exalted said... Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority), regulating and governing all things. (Surah Yunus 10:3) He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days (Surah Hud 11:7) Allah SWT knows best! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Xoogsade Posted September 24, 2005 Viking, you have done enough already. Thanks for your efforts. Should I come across a source that explains the matter in detail, I will let you know too. Take care saxib. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
