Stone the Adulterer!

[Khalaf]

Salams everyone,

 

 

Its snowing bad outside, (gotta give preview on what made me bring up this question)...so stuck in the house most of the day and watching an old movie..anyway the movie shows this lady (its jewish custom) that gets stoned to death because she committed sin. Islam also says stone the adulterer (may Allh forgive me but am I the only that thinks this is a bit barberic?) Also, what about saying when u kill, kill mercifully don't make the person go threw pain (as in slautering animal, no torture), how is stoning an adulterer not torture?

:confused:

[Faynuus]

Khalaf I do undertand your concern but you must not questions Allah's punishment. If you sinned, tawbah marwalbo way furantahay Allah is all merciful, all foregiving. As barberic as it may sound to you, it is way easier for the udulterer to be stoned to death than be in hellfire in the after life.

 

Sheikh Nur help out here pls.

 

and

Allah knows best.

[Nur]

Khalaf bro.

 

 

Punisment in Islam has a purpose, its a deterrent to discourage violating devine ordinances, thus the severity of the punishment is proportional to the importance of the devine order, in this case the protection of the social relationships.

 

Social relationships if not protected with laws that safeguard them, can get out of hand to cause many social problems:

 

1. Child neglect and abuse when they are born out of wedlock.

2. Deseases

3. Crimes ( when a spouse finds his wife with another man, which can be more barbaric than stoning)

4. Economic cost of the problem can cost the entire society ( judicial, broken family, law enforcement etc)

5. Failure to worship Allah SWT, which is the purpose of existence.

 

Barbarism is a term used to define when mischief is committed, people killed for no reason, buildings destroyed or torched, childern slaughtered, women raped etc.

 

Allah, does not do these things, people do, so thinking about Allah in the wrong sense can be a major sin, subxaanallah. Allah says: " And if you utter what is in your minds or conceal it, Allah knows it and will judge you accordingly.

 

Allah is just, kind, wise, and 96 more attributes of perfection are His, where do you find an attribute named Barbaric in Asmaa'ul xusnaa?

 

Tawheed in Isalm has three parts.

 

1. Surrender to absulute Sovreignty ( Uluhia)

2. Dependence on a single source as a care taker ( Rububia)

3. Satisfaction and acceptance of the ultimate attributes of the Sovreign. ( Asmaa wa sifaat)

 

A doubt of Allah's attributes, can be equivalent to Kufr.

 

 

May Allah protect you and me. amin

 

 

Nur

[Khalaf]

Faynuus so r u saying, if someone is stoned to death, then they are forgiven? Any sources plz? Why can't they be forgive while alive, can't human-beings not error?

 

Nur bro, first of all amiin may Allah protect all of us. But u haven't said anything new or anything that i didn't know before. With all this hush hush u and Faynus doing in this topic, is typical and sorry to say lame. Islam is about questioning, reasoning, and trying to understand everything. I wonder what ppl whom answer as both of u just did, would say to Ibrahiim pbuh, whom asked Allah for a sign to reconfrim his faith, ie the bird story....and that is a Prophet of God! A small question like this...and u already questioning someone's iman lol....i think i used to dat that too..may Allah forgive us all.

 

U didn't answer my question, and yeh i think stoning someone is creepy and torture....its not good to torture animals when salutering..or torture at all..how is stoning a human-being not torture..?i don't get it. And your replies are disappointing and lacking! But i used this medium as its the only forum i use...but will look into further insha-Allah.

 

salams

[Faynuus]

You were so humble Khalaf what is going on with you? where is the young religious khalaf i knew?

 

Iam not criticizing you for your questions but your tone and the words you have chosen and how you called Allah's punishment Barberic! Subxanallaah.

 

If you choose to deviate from the right path, if you choose to commit all major sins and you do not repent what will your fate be? You will most likely end up in hellfire, so will you call it barberic and say no i dont deserve this severe punishment? those are the denials of the kaafirs not a muslim who is a true believer.

[Khalaf]

Faynuus, i believe that is a girls name, marka sister since we don't know each-other off-line lets not judge each-other and make this personal abaayo. I am dead serious and sincere with this topic. If its my tone then i do appolgize, but thats how i feel and i was only being honest. May Allah forgive us all.

 

If you choose to deviate from the right path, if you choose to commit all major sins and you do not repent what will your fate be?

Only Allah knows!

 

But we are not discussing what happens to ppl after-life and if they end up in hell or jannah!

 

But stoning, and u are dancing around my questions. Who gets stoned to death?

 

1. The married person whom committs adultery. -correct?

 

a. so if the person repents, but they comitted this sin, are they stilled stoned to death?

 

b. if they are stoned to death, does this earse them of their sin in the dunya?

 

c. why is someone whom committed adultery stoned to death? meaing why is stoning specfic with adultery.. what about someone whom comitted murder? isn't that a worse offense?

 

d. islam is against torture, when u kill, kill mericfully, and quickly so the object doesn't suffer. how is stoning a human-being not prolonged suffering?

 

i just have questions...and everything ur saying i know...ur not addressing my questions.

[Nur]

Khalaf bro.

 

You write:

 

"and yeh i think stoning someone is creepy and torture"

 

 

Answer:

 

You are right, stoning is indeed a harsh punishment, its also torture if that is what you want to call it, and that is how it works , it discourages people like me and you from doing it, it was not a law passed by humans that we can debate its validity, its ordained by Allah SWT to punish adulterers and it has been on the books since the Torah was revealed to this day.

 

Does this contradict with the Hadeeth of cruelty to animals in which the Prophet SAWS taught us to make slaughtering animals as humane as possible?

 

No, it does not, let us compare the two ordinances:

 

1. Slaughtering animals is a daily utility in which the humane measures was introduced as a token of Allah's mercy.

 

2. Animals are not given intelligence, nor are honored by a Divine revelations to follow, thus they are neither responsible, nor accountable, they have not committed a crime to be punished for, so torturing them does not serve a purpose.

 

3. Humans are given intelligence, orders to follow, and free choice, thus they are accountable and responsible. A would be adulterer has the choice of not committing adultery, no one forces him to do it, besides by enforcing this ordinance, it discourags many others from doing it, and that is its value.

 

3. Punishments are meant to be a deterrent, a price we pay to protect a greater good, a higher value, that of the welfare of society, Allah has ordained that the hand of a thief to be cut, a murderer to be killed, and a fornicator (who has not married before) to be whipped, and an adulterer to be stoned..

 

4. Allah is not Democratic, he is a Sovreign, He dictates, and we follow willingly, its called Islam, he questions and He is not questioned, and what He says is always right even if you dont understand the wisdom behind it due to your limited capacity of intellect.

 

You say you want an answer, I answered but you are choosing to listen what you want, the severity of this punishment is eqivalent to the impact of this crime on society, go visit Hospitals to see illigitimate infants thrown on garbage bins, ask social workers cases involving adultery's impact of broken homes, runaway kids, and so on, the punishment is a strong signal, and those who dare to cross the line deserve no mercy, they should be prepared to taste the pain as they have tasted the pleasure of the major sin.

 

Lastly, if you think that this stoning business is pretty bad, you may be in for a surprise in the day of judgement, because for those who did not pay the price on earth fully and have not repented, they will be tortured in Hell, like secular governments, Allah does not allow protests against torture on earth as well as in Hell, if that was on your mind.

 

 

Nur

[Miriam1]

Khalaf, great question and I agree with you too that to question and reason isn't a sign of a lack of faith, but a sign of an inquisitive mind. But as Nur already stated, we must be willing to acknowledge a logical argument.

Nur, I was wondering, with your argument than can we safely assume that *if* we lived in an Islamic society with sharia implemented, acts that lead to "death by stoning" should be almost non-existent, that the whole idea is an extreme that the state should rarely or never resort to, but equally not deny its legitimacy.

I mean how do we come to define an adulterer? Are there degrees of severity...can a simple minded person who is seduced be compared to someone who viciously targets others weakness?

Stoning to death, who administers the act of stoning, is it public? Is there a time limit to it, what happens if the person doesn't die does it continue until death is proclaimed?

 

I know its many questions, I will do my own research but if you have the answers available that would be super, since I am sure its one of those hot topics people focus on.

 

Ps. Khalaf, there has been a lot of research lately that indicated death by the lethal injection is inhumane as well. The cocktail of drugs that given to inmates, works by first paralyzing the person, so they cannot react. It subsequently, starts to slowly shut down every system of the body...the level of pain is thought to be mind numbingly excruciating .

[Nur]

Hayaam sis

 

You ask:

 

"Nur, I was wondering, with your argument than can we safely assume that *if* we lived in an Islamic society with sharia implemented, acts that lead to "death by stoning" should be almost non-existent, that the whole idea is an extreme that the state should rarely or never resort to, but equally not deny its legitimacy?

 

 

Answer:

 

Walaalo, Yes, if an impartial message is delivered and a well publicised case or two is televised, rest assured that it will be nonexistent in no time, how many times have the world used nuclear bombs?

 

 

You ask:

 

"I mean how do we come to define an adulterer? Are there degrees of severity...can a simple minded person who is seduced be compared to someone who viciously targets others weakness?

 

 

Answetr.

 

Adultry cases are the most difficult to prove in a court of law in Islam, practically someone has to blatantly do it on Oprah Show, because it takes four reliable adults to witness the act, graphically that nothing is left for the imaginaion. When that happens, or a peson willingly comes forward to be punished, there is no room to maneuver.

 

 

You Ask:

 

"Stoning to death, who administers the act of stoning, is it public?

 

 

Answer:

 

The Islamic court sentences, and the law enforcement executed in public right after Juma Prayers.

 

 

You Ask:

 

" Is there a time limit to it, what happens if the person doesn't die does it continue until death is proclaimed?

 

Answer:

 

This question I dont know, I have to look it up and come back soon inshAllah.

 

 

Wallahu Aclam

 

 

Nur

[Dhubad.]

When Allah orders something one has to follow it even if they can not comprehend the reasoning behind it.

 

For example, when Allah ordered prophet Ibrahim(AS) to slaughter his only child he followed the order without hesitation until Allah intervened...

[Khalaf]

Islam is a simple deen, easy to comprehend, hence why within less then 2 decades w/out a powerful state such as Roman state as with Christianity, this deen was able to spread throughout the world, making men of all races and backgrounds into believers in One God. Why? It is simple deen, a way of life easy to comprehend, with knowledge and coming in contact with ppl of knowledge, hence why gaining knowledge is an important aspect of being a good Muslim. The problem is those of us whom lack the knowledge, and unable to explain the tenants/shariah of the deen to others, thus become lazy and reply, well u just gotta follow what the book says. I am afraid this is not the way of the Sunnah of the Messenger scw and the way of companions ra. With that said, Ibrahim(AS) was a Messenger of God, not the common man like u and I. He was entrusted with a message and a mission by God in which he knew. Further it was the task of the messengers to call man to truth, with logic, good reasoning, and good words. Even sometimes this was not enough, and The Creator Knowing His creation, sometimes supported the messengers (pbu all of them) with miracles ie Musa, Issa peace be upon them and so on.

 

 

Brother Nur, with all due respect I am afraid you are being to vague in this discourse and I am looking for specifics. You are speaking to a fellow Muslim, whom understands everything you do. I understand the reasoning behind this punishment is to deter. Further I understand unlike you are trying to convey here, that a Muslim society with shariah or as is the case for the Muslim world today-no Shariah, regardless however, unlike a non-Muslim society would not have the same problems as you mentioned of the consequences of adultery on society or at least not to the same degree as the non-Muslim society. Thus although in no way am I short cutting the importance of a punishment is to deter a crime and adultery is a crime in Islam, however the biggest deterrence is Iman, hence why Nabi scw spent 13 years of his mission building the iman of the community, before implementing any laws.

 

 

However that is an entirely different topic and not what I was interested in. I was interested in specifics. I realize my words in the beginning were from emotion after having viewed that movie (and we r human, error, and thus ask forgiveness). I also realize this is probably not the best medium to get what I was looking for, but since from the past I have witnessed successful exchanges in this medium, I therefore introduced this topic hoping for the same. However after second thought, I realize this is not going to be benefical and it would be best to talk to my teacher about this, as i intended to do anyway. JazkAllah Khair.

 

 

Hayam, Thanks sister for your two cents, much apperciated and very interesting thoughts! I have the same thoughts, but after rethinking bout it, will cool off on it, reason being it will only sound like too many ramblings/long questionnaire. But please continue insha-Allah if you so wish. take care

[Naden]

Khalaf, the issue of death by stoning is one that has been in contention for hundreds of years as you must have read. There have been thinkers of Islam who found that there is no real basis for the practice/punishment in Islam given that there is a punishment spelled out in the Quran for adultery. The narration by Omar (RA) about the sheikh/sheikha is vague and truly inexplicable. The story about the rasuul (csw) succumbing to a Jewish woman's pleas to be stoned (to purify her soul of the sin) is steeped in the Jewsih faith and tradition.

 

Arguments can be made for each side but I've always been of the conviction that there is no real basis for this practice in Islam. Adultery is no more hideous a crime than torturing people, molesting children, killing the innocent and so on.

[Khalaf]

Salams Naden,

 

To be honest w/ u this has never occured to me and no I have never pondered over it, until i watched the movie lol. I know its rather silly.

 

The story about the rasuul (csw) succumbing to a Jewish woman's pleas to be stoned (to purify her soul of the sin) is steeped in the Jewsih faith and tradition.

Are those the only instances? I believe i've come across in which a woman confessed to have committed this sin, and the reply from Nabi scw, was stone her to death. Allah knows best. Never really pondered over it or thought about it much.

 

Adultery is no more hideous a crime than torturing people, molesting children, killing the innocent and so on.

Exactly my sentiments. I never understood the reason for stoning being specfic w/ adultery.

 

salams

[Nur]

Khalaf bro.

 

Allah Said in Quraan: " It was not a choice for believers, men and women (to follow their own opinions) once Allah and His appostle have ruled on an issue"

 

 

When an issue is disputed in Islam, the reference is Quraan and Sunnah, but when you refuse to accept the jusdgement of the source of the ruling itself ( the Prophet of Allah), and call a ruling of his "barbaric", then like Naden said, you are entitled to your own opinion, there is no room for a discussion or explaining left.

 

 

Naden sis:

 

What would be the "real basis" for this Islamic practice, if any, for you to consider and accept its validity?

 

 

Nur

[Naden]

^ Nur, walaal, stoning for adultery is invalid, in my opinion, because the punishment is clearly spelled out in the Quran. The support for stoning and the distinctions made between the unmarried and married do not hold water on many levels.