Garnaqsi;862154 wrote: My position is many Muslims do routinely reinterpret the Koran to fit the scientific miracles bill, but that doesn't mean every verse used in such vain has been. How you think a counterexample is sufficient to counter this is beyond me. As I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong here, the definition of a scientific miracle is something that was not known at the time and was revealed in the Koran only to later be confirmed by science. This particular explanation existed and that renders the claim of it being a scientific miracle moot. I have no burden to explain how he might have known about it -- nor does the validity of anything that I've asserted depend on the providence of such an explanation -- and your implication that he couldn't have is a circumstantial excuse. You would have to prove it in each and every example if you believe they 'routinely' re-interpret. Your position is a generalization. Can you understand that? That means any one case where that hasn't happened negates your alleged routine. Two - even if we take your two as accurate regarding re-interpretation - does not MAKE a routine. You only have tendrils of a case. Scientific miracle? Isn't that an oxymoron? Something that was not known? - are you saying that at that time - embryology was in fact KNOWN or was it postulated by some? Clearly you can't argue it was known pre-quran - that would require scientific evidence and tools they didn't have. It's too easy to dimiss your excuses.

I've seen the same guy in 3 or 4 articles - he knows how to work the media. Jeez they should make him Minister of Tourism at this rate.

Among returnees, there's an almost euphoric desire to convert others, a sense that if only enough money and hope flood back, everything will be OK. In the conference rooms of Mogadishu's first commercial bank, participants in a recent event enthused that the city was ready for investors. (The conference was held in May under the auspices of TED, the New-York based nonprofit that fosters inspirational talks by people with "ideas worth spreading.") The bank's owner and co-organizer of the event, Liban Egal, a Somali American from Baltimore, acknowledges that the war-torn country doesn't yet have the laws and courts to allow his bank to expand and lend money. In fact, it's losing $20,000 a month, losses he says he can sustain for perhaps six months. The bank's biggest overhead cost is security, in a city where anyone important never goes anywhere without a couple of dozen security guards. At the moment, Egal, 43, is pitching to small and medium-size businesses, hoping to handle their payrolls and other accounting matters. And for businesspeople, there is an upside here: There are no taxes or state interference. As Egal talks, gunfire explodes a couple of streets away and rattles on for 10 minutes. He ignores it, as though it was a neighbor's annoying barking dog. Egal set up his first business, a fried-chicken joint, in a part of Baltimore he says was so bad that he had no competition. He realized that he actually enjoyed risk. He's gone from small risks, like losing $5,000 or $6,000 a month in his Baltimore small financing company, to huge ones, like opening the bank in Mogadishu. He also started an Internet server and a research company. "When I came in August [2011], when Shabab had just left and the city was empty, I decided to do this project, the Internet and the bank. People thought I was crazy, because at the time Shabab was very powerful. But I could see at the time that the tide was turning. "I'm a risk-taker. I've noticed some people have no tolerance for even losing $10. They cry like someone died. I didn't have a problem. That's why I took the risk of coming here so early." Egal has little confidence that the political path will be smooth, but says as long as the African Union peacekeeping forces in Mogadishu maintain security and the new government brings in a legal framework, businesses will flourish and governance will slowly improve. Jama, his fellow entrepreneur, is still working to convince his wife the place is safe. But he's sure that he'll eventually win her over. "I feel like it's going to be better and I feel like it's going to be soon," he said. "Miami Beach wasn't built in a day. "You can come back next year, without guards." robyn.dixon@latimes.com Copyright © 2012, Los Angeles Times http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mogadishu-rising-20120828,0,1011902,full.story

The relative peace in Somalia's capital has seen a revival of business unlike anything since 1991. Emigres are flooding back with money, ideas and confidence. By Robyn Dixon, Los Angeles Times August 27, 2012, 9:55 p.m. MOGADISHU, Somalia — In the years to come, Ahmed Jama will be seen either as a visionary or a lunatic who squandered his money on a crazy dream. That crazy dream? To bring tourists to his hotel on the shores of one of the world's prettiest beaches — which just happens to be on the edge of a city known for more than 20 years as the world's most dangerous place. Mogadishu. In his dream, there won't be half a dozen guards with guns on the back of an SUV for most foreign visitors, like now. And the haunting memories of ruthless warlords, crippling famine and terrifying armed children will have faded. Instead, there'll be surfing and swimming, seafood pulled fresh from the sea and little shops selling exotic shells and tourist souvenirs. On that, he's staked $200,000 to build a hotel and restaurant complex at the magnificent Jazeera Beach. It has all the elements of a tourist brochure: white sand, azure sea, boats bobbing like sea gulls, a mysterious rocky island just offshore, a village on a point with little pink and white houses, all set out as the breakfast view below his quaint open-air restaurant. Jama wanders through the place gesturing proudly at the tiled floors, fresh paint and colorfully decorated ceilings. It's not five-star luxury, but at $100 a night, its market isn't foreign tourists — yet — but the Somali diaspora nostalgic for their homeland the way it used to be. But even his wife, Amina, isn't convinced. She visited, with their children, and swiftly made plans to fly back to London, where Jama lived as an emigre during his country's long nightmare. Craziest of all, he says he's doing it not for the money, but to foster hope, after countless failed efforts to rebuild the nation. "The message is there is a good side to Somalia," says Jama, 46. "There will be change here. It's a beautiful country. We need change. That's my message." This capital city teeters on the razor edge dividing war from peace, as if it could yet slip back into the chaos that found as its international symbol the searing image of American soldiers' bodies being dragged through the streets after their Black Hawk helicopter was shot down nearly two decades ago. The vacant windows of bullet-pocked ruins give the city a haunted, mournful air, and a new government is yet to form. But the streets are crowded, the roads are choked with cars, and the shops are daubed with gaudy, freshly painted murals. Women in bougainvillea colors float through the little street markets, shopping for food. Old men prod their walking sticks into ankle-deep puddles left by recent rains. Outside a shop, an artist applies his brush carefully to a wall, poised to add yet another splash of garish color. After more than 20 years of violence, people almost dare not hope that — this time — peace will actually stick. But the revival of the city is so infectious, they can't help it. A year ago, the Shabab, a radical Al Qaeda-linked militia that had ushered in a new reign of terror, abandoned Mogadishu, and has since lost more territory. But the sporadic suicide bombings, daily sputtering of gunfire and sinister targeted assassinations are enough to raise fears that the Shabab can still strike fatally at the city, or that the Somali warlords and businessmen who profited so much from decades of war have not had their fill. In coming days or weeks, the parliament that was just selected will elect a president. He will appoint a prime minister, who in turn will choose a Cabinet, in a process designed to balance the power of Somalia's clans. If it goes wrong, no one here is in any doubt that the country will slump once more into violence and warlordism. But the relative peace has seen a revival of business unlike anything since 1991, when the fall of dictator Mohamed Siad Barre led to 21 lost years. In the fish market, buyers and sellers throng around neatly arrayed rows of the glistening catch. New buildings are going up and Mogadishans frequently boast that instead of AK-47s, the city rings with the sound of hammers. Emigres are flooding back with money, ideas and confidence, brushing off concern about whether the peace will fracture. Turkish Airlines now runs a direct flight from Istanbul to Mogadishu, and it's hard to get a seat on the inbound flight. A year ago, it would have been unthinkable to open what is claimed to be the country's first commercial bank. Or build a hotel on a white sand beach. A skinny figure in a baggy T-shirt and too-big trousers, Jama shambles down the beach below his almost-finished hotel to greet some visitors. He drops the final consonants of words as if scattering coins to beggars, in the twang he picked up living in Britain's east Birmingham and West London for nearly 25 years. As a student, training as a chef in the British Midlands, he was hurt by the way people talked about his country — as if there was a fatal, inevitable Somali "character," condemned to violent self-annihilation. " 'Is that your people?' That always used to cut you. When people ask you in the middle of college, 'Is that your people?' That makes you feel bad." As a boy in Somalia, the son of a poor sheep and cattle trader, Jama had a dream that was simple but rather vague: He wanted to be a big success. Now he has a restaurant in London, a restaurant in Mogadishu proper and the beachside resort near a lagoon full of flamingos. When he decided to go to Mogadishu to start a business, just a month after the Shabab militants left the city, friends in the Somali diaspora were stunned. "Everyone was saying: 'Please, do not go there. Stay over here.' Some of them believe that in a couple of days, I'll come back." Many doubts remain, but the return of the diaspora, the swift investment of money and booming property development, and even plans to launch a stock exchange, make this period of peace different from past efforts at stability. There is now a new group with a big economic stake in peace — and an emotional one too. In a quiet corner of Mogadishu, a small cemetery, empty but for a few ambling goats, is a starting place for Safia Yasin's quest for the grave of her father. Yasin, 34, wearing a long, flowing black garment and pink polka-dot scarf, treads slowly up a sandy incline, ignoring the garbage at her feet "It's well taken care of. That's something," she murmurs to herself. When she was only 2, she remembers sitting barefoot and crying on the front steps of the hospital where he lay dying. In the graveyard, she meets a mullah with one finger blown off, who tells her that all the graves are listed and while it might take time, her father's will certainly be found. Yasin resigned from her job managing a healthcare company in Minnesota and returned to her birthplace last month to placate the ghost memories of her childhood and find her father's resting place. "Identity is very important. I lived in the States for 20 years, but still there was a gap," she says. There's another reason she came: to be of use. Yasin, who has a master's degree in government policy, works at a nongovernmental organization, the Center for Research and Dialogue, helping Mogadishu youths scarred by war, and girls still traumatized from when teenagers were forcibly married to young Shabab fighters. "Those of us in the diaspora have to come back and change this country to the way it was before," she says. "All my memories, all my history, is here. These crumbling buildings, this is who we are. That's why I feel I'm home."

Nin-Yaaban;862116 wrote: The kids now are just bunch of losers. I see 'em walking about here everyday, and it's like you are looking at Zombies, with no goals/ambitions. It scares me 'walahi. LOL - they're in debt, can't move out of their parent's home, have no job or are a greeter at Walmart or the like and you expect them to have goals and ambitions. You're lucky they don't burn the whole country down.

Never did feel sorry for him until now.

..WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A former Somali prime minister denied diplomatic immunity must pay $21 million in damages to the victims of his alleged torture and human rights abuse, a U.S. federal court ruled on Tuesday. Mohamed Ali Samantar, who served as Somalia's defense minister in the 1980s and prime minister from 1987 to 1990, agreed in February to not contest the charges and accept liability for any damages against the seven plaintiffs - four individuals and three estates. The lawsuit, seeking financial damages from Samantar, was filed under the Torture Victim Protection Act in 2004 by a small group of Somalis who said they suffered torture or other abuses in their homeland by soldiers or other government officials under Samantar's general command. Samantar has lived in Virginia since 1997. Some of the plaintiffs are naturalized U.S. citizens. The case had been followed closely for its foreign policy implications. Granting immunity could allow foreign torturers in the United States to escape responsibility, human rights groups said. The seven plaintiffs do not claim that Samantar personally committed the atrocities or that he was directly involved. But they said the Somali intelligence agencies and the military police under his command engaged in the killings, rapes and torture of civilians, including the use of electric shocks. A federal judge dismissed the original lawsuit. But a U.S. appeals court reinstated it, ruling the 1976 sovereign immunity law does not apply to individuals. In 2010 the U.S. Supreme Court unanimously ruled that Samantar did not have diplomatic protection from lawsuits. On Tuesday U.S. District Judge for the Eastern District of Virginia Leonie Brinkema ruled that Samantar owed $1 million in compensatory damages and $2 million in punitive damages to each plaintiff. Samantar is going through bankruptcy proceedings and does not have to pay any damages until after those proceedings are resolved. The case is Bashe Abdi Yousuf et al. v. Mohamed Ali Samantar. Case No. 1:04CV1360 (Reporting by Drew Singer; Editing By Howard Goller and Xavier Briand) http://news.yahoo.com/ex-somali-pm-must-pay-21-million-alleged-231314931.html?_esi=1

LOL

Garnaqsi;862132 wrote: Then you have committed a straw man here. I presented two cases whose interpretation/meaning I argued was appropriated after science, and you have presented a completely different one and said look, this one isn't, and apparently dismissed my case on that basis. If that's not a textbook example of a straw man then I don't know what is. On the top of that, as I have said your example still fails short of what you indented for because these stages of developments given in the Koran have existed long before that time. A straw man is representing your position as one you haven't taken. Is your position only those 2 verses you provided have been re-interpreted and no others have - if it is then introducing my verse is a straw man. If your position is that Muslims routinely re-interpret verses to suit the 'miracle' that is the Quran - then any verse that has not been re-intepreted like the one I cited is sufficient to negate your position. Clearly - I don't think you only meant that 2 verses only have been re-interpreted but if it is - please clarify now. My example falls short? How? 7th century Arabia that within 50 years of the Prophet's death had written down the Quran was able to appropriate this particular peice of knowledge from the Greeks and it was copied down as it is and somehow thought it vital to detail? To prove this - would be a pretty big task.

^Interesting stuff. Garnaqsi;862083 wrote: ElPunto - You didn't really address the disparity of interpretation that I've pointed out (I wasn't talking about that/I've my doubts about him sounds more like a cop-out, since these ARE the sort of verses that are now widely considered to be scientific miracles by many Muslims). Besides, as has been said, the embryology description in the Koran wasn't something that science came to know later on -- in fact, the Greeks had very good understanding of it -- so it falls short of the example you were meaning to provide. I didn't watch the clip nor plan to. I simply addressed your remark that verses in the Quran are re-interpreted to suit modern science. When the Quran says at the first stage the embryo is this, and then this, and then this. There isn't much interpretation there - it is either the case or it isn't. If it is the case - then you can say it's a coincidence or borrowed from the Greeks or any myriad explanation that soothes your character. And you should know better than to bring up Greek postulations as scientific proof - that isn't sufficient and you know that. I don't care what floats your boat - just don't say - oh you guys just re-interpreted it as you wish. There is no case there. I don't understand this whole debate re scientific miracles in the Quran alleged or otherwise. If it isn't something you believe in - what difference does it make - if in fact it did talk about the Big Bang and even describe it in detail. You would find a way to explain it away. What is the point of this debate?

Hehe at the way Ngonge inoculated himself from criticism with the LA/SL sustainable change point. Utlimately the sustainable change here is that governance is returning and being accepted by Somalis rather than violence and winner take all attitude of the past that resulted in nothing. The first go round of this process was entirely managed by outsiders and the govt built and based outside the country. This current process was owned more by Somalis and many new faces have joined the fray though outside interference was a potent force. With further rounds - it will be the established that a process, whatever its flaws, will be the way that issues are resolved in Somalia.

^Well - you won't lack for forums for anti islamic stuff so your whining isn't something I can sympathize with.

^So muhamed had detailed conversations with those folks and thought it would be good spice to put it in his book? There is no proof for the existence of God - only signs that point to his existence for people of knowledge. Tjpse are enough for us. If you don't buy it - don't buy it. And for Muslims - there is no point claiming proofs for his existence - since that isn't the terminology used in the Quran. End of story.

I listened to the first 5 minutes - didn't hear anything that troubled me. Others have also stated the same. This was available to Shariif before he chose him PM - and he didn't find it offensive. Is your issue with MB wife accusations? I believe MB is a Somaliland sympathizer and some of this actions are aimed at supporting/encouraging secession. It's fair to say that. Any personal attacks on his wife are low.

Garnaqsi;859110 wrote: ElPunto -- You say no new interpretation or meaning has been given. My point was that this happened, and I've explained how neither the expanding universe interpretation of that particular verse nor the ostrich egg interpretation of the other one was there until recently. I've even explained how Ibn Kathir gives these verses altogether different meaning than the one given by those who now champion the idea of scientific miracles. I'm happy to be proven wrong, but you did nothing to counter that; rather, you merely stated its negation. Missed this... I wasn't refering to this particular clip or individual - I have my doubts about him. I was refering to Quranic verses that describe real world phenemonen that have been later been proven by science. The prime example being the stages of the embryo in the womb. You can choose not to believe whatever you like - but the similarity in this example to the actual can't be dismissed out of hand as after the fact re-interpretation.

^Please back up your assertions otherwise LSK's comments fully apply to you. Waa intaas.

^'Change the reality'- we're trying to establish the reality - let's do that first. Just state the tuulo where they're from - that code is common here. It's important that folks verify what you're claiming. I'm not an expert in these personalties. I just find what you're saying highly doubtful. If your allegations are true - he is a tolka man. Let's see that first.

Cawaale;861903 wrote: Farmajo left behind 29 women and men who came from different regions of Somalia, and most important they all were educated. Gaas came and replaced them all with 20 of them from his sub-sub-clan and the rest from different sub tribes of Puntland. Somalis have a habit of making generic accusations. Here you have a chance to back up your specific allegations. Please provide us wth 5 individuals that worked for Farmaajo, their positions, their clan affiliation, and the new ones Abdiwali put in their place and their clan affiliations and when he replaced them. If you can do that - I'll take your word for the rest of them.

^Samatar is a professor - are you sure he will be more exciting that A/wali? Figure it out Mario.

Abtigiis;861884 wrote: Is it normal if there is a persistent correlation clan-wise between the candidate endorsed and the endorser? That is my point. I did not see a D- block guy saying Dr. Baadiyow is competent. Why? Yet, he is 100% better qualified than Abdiweli and Farmajo combined togather. Let us not dismiss a valid concern with a hogwash like this. Denial is not the way out of this quagmire. If the candidate is competent, qualified and worthy of support - it is fine. This is the same argument some whites were using against Obama in 2008 - when blacks were voting for him in large numbers. This mentality is also sick. The bottom line - Abdiweli is a qualifed candidate who has proven himself in government in Somalia - anyone who supports him on that basis is fine - anyone who opposes him because they feel there is a better candidate out there is fine. But to label all his supporters as akin to brainswashed clannish kids is ridiculous.

^Somalia - apparently you and I are twins - according to the guy who joined in January 2012. Argue your point here - otherwise stop acting like a dhoocil Mario.

Abtigiis;861866 wrote: And where is Abdiweli's CV bigger than Badiyow, Samatar or the other candidates? Where does his achievements surpass that of Shariif or Farmaajo? Do you want us to credit Abdiweli for the capture of Marka? Do you want us to extol Abdiweli for the finalization of the constitution as if we do not know it would have happened even if Xaaji Xundjuf was a PM? ElPunto, I respect you, please don't disappoint me. I thought you are different. Abdiweli is a tribalist and in that sense in the same league as Madoobe and Qaybdiid. Getting diplomas doesn't absolve you of tribal labels if you are one. Abdiweli is a tribialist according to you and your waxaa la yiri sources. But his record suggests otherwise. What we have is a competent PM who worked with all clans in the TFG to take Somalia to the post transition period and increase support for it from the IC. Farmaajo's time was too short and clearly he is not an astute poltiican given the way he was pressed to exit. Shariif has exceeded my expectations and he has tried to cool clan tensions down in Somalia but let's face it - there isn't much going on up there. All the rest are untested and untried. But what I was really objecting to was putting Madobe and Qaybdid in there with him and saying everyone has their clan fool. Serious, competent candidates can't be dismissed with clan labels. Anyone who supports Farmaajo can't be dismissed with clan label. Get a better argument here if you want my respect.

Aaliyyah;861857 wrote: Mr. Puntland I never said Galayr will win simply that he had a high chance of winning. He is a competent leader and would have done a good job if he was elected for the speaker of the parliament position. As for my prediction about the presidential election, I have the right to express that. I personally don't care if you take me serious or not. Iska amus Madame Galayr - bootada Khatumo ku saabsaan meelna ila iyo hada kuma garin. Wa bilaahi towfiiq.

On any objective measure - unless we have lost all sanity - Abdiweli, his background and his acheivements thus far cannot be compared to Qaybdid or Madobe. Putting them in the same basket with him - and presenting his candidacy as without merit save his bloodline for his supporters is taking your usual hyberbole to ridiculous levels.

Aaliyyah;861846 wrote: Weren't Solers here particularly puntlanders making predictions way before the parliament of the speaker elections took place. I see no reason why I can't do the same before the presidential elections takes place. You can - but if you didn't get the Galayr prediction right what makes you politically plugged in to get this one right? Why would anyone take it seriously? It would be nice if everyone kept it low key.