ThePoint, I changed my mind about how much more I have to say about this topic. But only because a couple of distinct points are being discussed simultaneously and should be clarified. This was an opinion piece - the tone is something else. I disagree. Preachers are a dime a dozen on this site and the tone you refer to leaves little space for opposing views. When people use deterministic words like 'kafir' - which I find to be a most unfortunate description of Christians, they are speaking from a point of severe judgement and disdain. So in the opinion of the original poster, a seminal difference between Somalis in the West and those in Somalia is a 'culture and faith so untainted by kafirism'. What are the implications of this? You believe it is a 'gushing' tone and I think it's 'preachy'. Enough of that. Hell-hole being in my definition - a place where things are bad and where the situation is stagnating or getting worse. Is Somalia a hell-hole now? Not according to any reasonable metric. Reasonable metric, huh? According to the UNDP (2002), Somalia has one of the highest infant mortality rates in the world (1 in 4) and it is estimated that 71% of the population is chronically undernourished. Twenty-five percent of newborns dying and 7 in 10 people undernourished is a 'bad' situation by any standard. Pick a reasonable metric of your choice and find out if it will pass the hell-hole test for you. There are painful indications that long-standing droughts and environmental degradation make economic and agricultural recovery perilous at best. This, in my book, is a sign of stagnation and potential for worse hunger. I could go on and on but if you have a healthy mistrust of NGOs and their figures, like I do, I rely on personal experience. I've supported one relative or another even as a high-schooler. So many died of preventable illness preventable by a nourishing diet and primary health care. You see the return of Somalis to invest and open businesses and so on as 'reasonable metrics' of improvement. We clearly see this aspect of recovery and its impact on Somalis differently. To each his own. Establish appropriate metrics and your arguments may be more relevant. You seem eager to take out your logic 101 wheels for a ride. The reason I refused to compare Mexico and Somalia is because the two are incomparable given economic indicators. Now if you compare Somalia to say, Eriteria or any of the smaller countries in Africa with similar social/economic indicators (such as mortality/literacy rates and so on), we would have something. since you established the metric of people fleeing as something that indicts the society they fled. No, I didn't. A society seeing its members run out of fear for life and limb should be indicted. I pointed that fleeing a place in addition to other indicators of collapse (people dying then and at the threat of starvation now) fit my definition of a hell-hole (your word). What would the purpose of such a comparison be? To debate what defines a present state of unmitigated disaster? We can certainly engage in that too, the UN does it all the time. comment made was that their stocism is admirable. Who could disagree with this? I think it is excessively romanticizing, you obviously don't. Again, to each his own. It is stretched out to feed everyone and although those receiving it hardly know when/whether the next one will come they put their faith in God and do their very best. This is called surviving and who could possibly see anything wrong with that? Where is the delusion and the head in the sand syndrome? It's fascinatingly interesting - unsubstaniated and irresponsible accusations are made right and left. The delusion I saw in the original post is that despite abject poverty and at times lack of basic sustenance, many Somalis live a 'life here is so stress free, you see people who might not even have anything to eat but they never frown or get depressed'. These are the sister's words. You continue injecting your thesis on the faith of these folks into this. This, unfortunately, is not what I have the contention about. People with nothing to eat have a stress-free life that doesn't even warrant some depression????? Are we understanding this sentimental, dreamy interpretation the same way? Perhaps not. I did not say the anyone should forgo medicine and rely on 'salvation'. What I said was in the absence of food(or medicine) one should put one's reliance in God and hold steady and stay hopeful. I never said you said it, I drew an example to illustrate my view of this silent and admirable suffering. Is it too much to say that people are suffering and very few have the means to alleviate their suffering? If the sister who posted this felt better sleeping at night believing this, I certainly don't. It is a personal, wretched, and unsolvable problem in my lifetime that haunts my dreams. You second statement is a given. Reliance on God is a must in all circumstances, probably the only thing when one has nothing to eat. I seek a more pragmatic and empathic discussion of the plight when it does arise. A quarrel about faith being central to one's coping doesn't apply. Now some in Somalia certainly do the same but because the society is faith-based more or less, many more lean on their faith and take sustanance from it. I hope that point is clear now. The point was never unclear. Just wrapped in a great deal of syrupy sentimentality. Because she mentioned one positive aspect about Somalia and said it lacked in the west - she must unceremoniously leave. If you think saying Somalia has a simpler way of life and people are rooted in their faith as 'utopic' - then you have little idea what that word means. I thought the sister's thesis that you defended so vehemently was not a comparison between Somalia and the West, rather a comparison of Somalis here and there? Alas, all of this talk of a simple, rooted-in-faith life is non debatable. What can one say against it? I understand what the word means and the reference is to this stress-free life where one is non-depressed even when hungry. Would you not think of this place as a Utopia? I do. This is the point of contention, not whether Somalis in Somalia have an untainted, astounding faith lacking in their Western counterparts. This kind of moral armour is something few in the West have. I am still unclear on why you think 'moral armour' is deficient in the West. For you, however, poverty and lawlessness define the individual and the society. That's not what I said. Poverty and lawlessness determine the quality of life. Is the thread about the poverty or lawlessness of Somalia or about what one poster's opinion on the state of Somalis' faith and condition. Neither. The original poster posted her views, people posted their views. She may have initiated the topic but her views are not rare. The discussion moved beyond her reflections into larger ones. Talk of poverty is inescapable when we bring up people who may not have enough to eat. Could you be more wrong in your characterization of a blatant contrast between Somalia and the West?????? Maybe we are not talking to each other but talking at each other. Only one point needs to be debated, in my opinion, and it has nothing to do with faith. and I agree that on the point of their faith Somalis have a strength even if they are lacking in other things.(essentially my point) Okay, your point is that Somalis are a strong lot who are anchored by their faith. How can anyone disagree with that? The sister's simplistic outlook did not warrant this lenghty thread. Unlike what was asserted, I do not believe it was a simple opinion piece of someone going for a visit and sharing reflections. It contained a romanticized characterization of the suffering (due to hunger) of people in Somalia. For me and maybe others, this is bizarre and difficult to tolerate. This was my point and it was certainly not as simple as you make it to be in your second post. To me this latter response is not reasonable, legitimate, or respectful. It is an extreme response. It really has no place in a proper discussion. I could be wrong but likely not. Fortunately, you do not decide the legitimacy of my argument (which surprisingly is not in contradiction with yours). Don't worry yourself with the respect or reason behind my points, I don't believe enough realistic discussions are taken on by Somalis on this topic. A proper discussion calls out trite and superficial arguments that are confounded by non-debatable issues such as faith. Back-slapping and dreamy reflections of a better life in present day Somalia don't impress me. You're probably not wrong about this, but then again, we're not discussing the same thing.

Yes, they are millionaires, but I was curious about the lax attitude of these team owners. European sports have come a long way to reduce hooliganism. Why is racism so allowed? I don't if a comparison between these black players and white Africans is valid but the viciousness of the attacks are something else. I was wondering if these countries even debate this behaviour.

Originally posted by Pi: Certain parts of Somalia have made some progess, so its not fair to take away from their philanthrophy and diligent efforts at reconstruction. Pi, I agree and I am certainly not one to take away from the serious work that people in so many parts of Somalia are doing. Since I am largely poor, I have only a few dollars and my prayers to give. Naden - a reply will be forthcoming later on tonight - tata That's fine. I, personally, have said all I had to say in response to the sister's post and any subsequent ideas that have arisen.

Haunting . I was praying that it was fiction as I came near the end.

Proselytizing? Exaggeration much! She was giving her opinion on how people deal with their (sad) lot in life on the basis of their faith. You and I both know it was not an opinion piece on dealing with a 'sad lot'. Where is the evidence of any type of coping other than a non-depressed hungry face? Any time you admonish people to leave a 'kafir' land and to shed a 'western individualistic culture', you are preaching, maybe even proselytizing. Because thousands ran away from Somalia - it is a hell-hole with no redeeming points about it? Hardly. Hundreds of thousands ran away, hundreds of thousands more died, tens of thousands are dying now of hunger and disease, not to mention the hundreds who will venture out to the sea every few weeks and die there. That pretty much defines a hell-hole in my world. Yours? Thousands flee Mexico risking their lives to enter the US - I would hardly call Mexico a hellhole. Mexico and Somalia, the comparison is laughable. I'm not touching it. when faced with that how do you deal with it? Do you persevere, remain stoic and put your faith in God and do your very best? Don't even try to shove faith in my face and scare me away. They don't need anyone to point out their stoicism; resignation to one's poverty and hunger maybe an academic exercise for the likes of you but it is an inescapable reality for others. The point here is the basis of the faith in Islam and God gives Somalis sustenance that the average Westerner is unable to tap into in troubled times No, the point you're espousing, others are clapping for and the sister initiated is one of delusion and hiding your head in the sand. This is actually akin to catholic fervor of silent suffering. A lot like mother Teresa encouraging poor, TB-ridden Indians to accept salvation instead of medicine and running to a Santa Monica clinic for a stomach ache. Get a grip, the lot of you! I don't know what you mean by the 'average Westerner' not being able to cope with troubled times. I will give you this illustration, though. When any Somali sister is giving birth in any Western hospital, as Western doctors and nurses hover over her and her infant so they are healthy, I doubt she will trade places with a sister back home whose child has a 22.5% chance of dying. Look it up if you want. So she mentions positive aspects of somalia - she automatically has to give up her western passport and live there? Yes, she does. She is the one who finds the Western world objectionable and describes a Utopic Somalia. My call for anyone who does that to return to Somalia is a simple extension of their arguments. Arguments that are shallow and self-deceiving. When you find a place intolerable and a threat to your faith, don't waste your breath trying to get others to see things your way, simply leave. If you are truly nostalgic (as we all get), do share with the rest of us the smells, taste, pcitures of Somalia. Otherwise, pull the rest of that crap with young Somalis who have either never seen Somalia or are too young to imagine a place with no infrastructure. :rolleyes: That no matter the physical poverty and lack of order - spirtual and moral order rooted in Islam Say the men and women who have passports and money to fly back and forth. Again, put the Quran on the table and back away slowly where I can see your hands. You don't scare me. Keep repeating that to yourself, sooner or later you will be delusional enough to never explore any issues of poverty and lawlessness. This kind of moral armour is something few in the West have. Again, I don't know what this means. At the end of the day, the post of Modesty was not about pro/con, Somalia vs. the West. Yes, it was. Reread the post. you shouldn't veer off into the unrelated question of pro/con, Somalia vs. the West. Again, I wasn't the one who brought up the contrast between the two. The sister's post repeatedly paralleled Somalia vs. the West. And honestly, I used the Cheney pellets equivalent to disagree with the original post's thesis statement. The next time I run across a trite argument that paints a romantic, glib view of today's Somalia, I will point my kalashnikov up their asses and pull the trigger .

According to the e-Nuri Dictionary: it is a state of oblivion to the approaching termination of life and failure to prepare for it by finding the purpose of life before it is over Brother Nur, where were you when the shiit was hitting the fan in the general section? You should have shown up for your flogging with this talk of 'purpose in life'. Seriously though, you have the wrong set of symptoms for dunyaholism. A whole lot of students and working poor like me roam these sites, you are preaching the wrong thing in this instance. No millionaire magazines, Carribean vacations or dahab from Dubai. If you have an antidote against my student loan officer, you need to help a sister out .

Originally posted by Castro: We need more nadens not less. Thanks, Castro. BTW, I'm betting with me, myself and I on how long you'll be around. Nooooo, this isn't a mafiyoso threat. Katrina, I have my Raid for this thread and Mace for another thread and a whole lot of Sopranos under my wings. They can't do nothin' to me .

Somehow u remind me of Opinionated/D.A.. Brother Khayr, go away or I will get my biff-baff . Do you, or anyone else, have anything of value to say in rebuttal to naden's poignantly truthful points? Anything? Castro, I have yet to get Khayr to provide a single rebuttal.

No she wasn't. She was proselytizing about the purity and wonders of Somalia when everyone knows the hundreds of thousands who ran with their tail between their legs know how desolate it is. life here is so stress free, you see people who might not even have anything to eat but they never frown or get depressed, people here have strong faith and trust in Allah, their culture and faith is so untainted by kafirism. What the hell is that all about? Coming from someone who probably has both the passport and the money to go for this rapturous excursion and then run back to the west. No one wants to be hungry and the looks on their faces are not peace but resignation to agony. A stress free life leads only to people being hungry, faith alone doesn't build hospitals and schools. it seems the ones in the west take the western individualistic culture, but the ones here masha'Allah it makes me so proud of my country I said it earlier in the thread and I will say it again. Anyone who gets all excited about this return to the earth crap, give your kafir/western passport to someone your age in Somalia and stay there enjoying the caano geel and no one would be the wiser. Originally posted by Abdu lNoor: Asslaamu Alaykum, Brothers, the sister was just informing of us about her trip and sharing her views, the least we can do is wish her a happy and safe trip instead of argue about the morality of west and east.

Darling, if I ever met you and you used those 2 lines, I will put by $20 mace to good use. Originally posted by Conspiracy.: darling they'll work on any girl, even you if you were lucky enough to meet me

"I may not be the best-looking guy in here, but I'm the only one talking to you." Ooooh, a little mean-spirited with a touch of psychotic :eek: . "See my friend over there? He wants to know if you think I'm cute." A little self-absorbed with a touch of creepy . The rest are okay and just may work on a younger crowd.

Originally posted by Khayr: Naden, Do a little SEARCH on SOL for that Topic that you went off on a TANGENT with. It has been discussed on SOL several times. [/QB] What topic is that, Khayr, and I will do the search?

This is the funniest schtick I've read in ages. 'Macroeconomics of the restless muslim man: Jump ship and walk away from your family and the casualties would number only ONE'. the sooner a woman takes control of the situation the better, her options are sharing her husband or divorce, divorce has two parties, both are unhappy, polygamy has three parties, one is unhappy.

The original post, as I understood it, was to enquire of the utility of one's life. I didn't care what type of beef others may have had with SB but the subsequent hijacking of the thread led to a great deal of finger-pointing and subdebates. Nonetheless, for anyone who studied the faith formally, the book of God is not a mystery to be cracked only by Culima. Some (far too few) spend their careers studying it formally and share their knowledge with others. A few (far too many) use the ignorance/lack of education of many believers to gain a position of knowledge (and subsequent power) neither earned nor deserved. The purpose of our creation was to exalt God, and as another brother explained, the manner in which we reach this purpose is time-person-ability dependent. Or else, the Koran would not hold charity and the care of the orphan and infirm in such high regard. Why all these epileptic reactions to a question of what the individual purpose of a life is? I thought of a recent debate among Somalis in a large community in Canada. The community leaders were called into a meeting to discuss the issue of organ transplant. A hospital committee wanted to understand the position of Somalis (the largest African community in the province) on registering in bone marrow registeries and signing organ donor cards. The Somali community leaders quickly retorted that organ donation (didn't even discuss the marrow registry) is haram and not acceptable to Muslims. The hospital wondered then why Canadians of Somali origin accepted over 12 organ transplants in the past year. These dying people were not denied the organs and their families certainly didn't reject them. In a country in which voluntering is done by 1 in 3 or 4 people, mutual care of others in society is seen as necessary to raise the quality of life and not leave the sick and destitute to suffer alone. We as Somalis always scream that we take care of our kin but today's life perhaps requires that we take care of complete strangers and to do so for the remainder of our natural lives. I bring up these examples to show that there are and there should be a purpose to an individual's life that doesn't call into question their faith but is necessary to fulfill their duties to a society from which they draw so many benefits. When my own uncle had heart surgery, he was given the equivalent of the entire volume of his blood twice over to survive the surgeries. Blood donated by strangers. When as a college student I tried to organize a blood drive among Somalis and other muslims (in fairness to our people), I got nothing but snickers and eye rolling. We are walking about preaching to others how supreme our faith is and how righteous our peope but deeds certainly speak louder than words. As a final word, I don't take away anything from the learned people of Islam. I was taught by several during my school days and they left me with both the knowledge of the language and the history of the sira to read the Quran. I listen to Omar Khalid and others every once in a while to learn how they navigate the modern world and apply their faith. Then I use my own judgement and interests to navigate through my life. Originally posted by Rahima: I say we end it and move on. Perhaps they can discuss their own warped views amongst themselves whilst we discuss matters of importance and learn our religion more so that we do not resort to such backward ways- to actually think that we understand this religion better than the companions of the prophet s.c.w and the culimaa’ who have dedicated their lives to Islam.

I challenge anyone singing the praises of living in Somalia (or any part of the Arab world) to give away their kafir passport to a young person desperate to leave that arid part of the world :rolleyes: . There'll be one less delusional person around here and one less desperate Somali drowning in the sea near Yemen.

If this is a tongue-in-cheek, please use one of the emoticons. If not, I seriously object to your cavalier use of this demeaning and hideous word. Originally posted by Jaylaani: Send the niggers back to Africa where they come from. European soccer belongs to the white man.

Huh? :rolleyes: Explain, don't taunt. Originally posted by Alle-ubaahne: Let's see the reaction of our westernized girls who think emulating western ladies suffices life in its totality.

These soccer players deal with so much racism playing for European teams. Don't you think there should be stronger punishment for this vulgarity? Last Updated: Thursday, 2 March 2006, 13:16 GMT E-mail this to a friend Printable version Blatter condemns Spain over Eto'o By Ibrahim Sannie Eto's says Zaragoza's ground should have been closed Eto's says Zaragoza's ground should have been closed Fifa president Sepp Blatter has described the 9,000 euros fine imposed on Real Zaragoza for the racist abuse of Samuel Eto'o as "ridiculous". Zaragoza fans aimed racist taunts at the Barcelona forward during a Primera Liga match on Saturday. "In my opinion, the disciplinary decision they have taken is ridiculous," Blatter told BBC Sport. "It pains me to see yet another incident of racist behaviour...To be frank, it is time to get tough." Blatter added: "Under Fifa's disciplinary code and code of ethics, severe sanctions could - and should - be applied in certain situations, leading even to the loss of points or relegation of a team." Eto'o threatened to leave the pitch after a section of Zaragoza fans directed monkey chants at him on Saturday. Eto'o makes anti-racism protest Even though the 9,000 euros fine (US$10,000) is significantly larger than the usual $700 imposed on Spanish clubs for such offences, Blatter believes the Spanish federation must do more to punish those involved in racist behaviour. "This latest incident happened to one of the world's top players, playing for a top team in a top league," Blatter said. A severe punishment was needed to eradicate this problem from football - perhaps the closing of [Zaragoza's] stadium for a year Samuel Eto'o "How many other incidents - not nearly as high profile - are occurring around the world with other teams and leagues? The answer - far too many." Blatter also said Fifa's executive committee intended to step up its anti-racism campaign. Their meeting, scheduled for 16-17 March, will put forward new legislation to ensure there is a unified procedure against racism throughout the football world. "We will keep this process moving by calling for stricter sanctions to be imposed in the fight against discrimination, and consequently for the Fifa disciplinary code to be revised and implemented by our member associations," he added. Source

Agreed. Skepticism is not the right word here as it denotes a stable, ongoing state of mind. Questioning is certainly the better word. Originally posted by Amelia: Naden , questioning is one thing. We question to seek an understanding and gain knowledge.

I don't equate skepticism with being an agnostic. To me, believing in God is central to my outlook, however, being a Muslim entails more than just a belief in God. As we grow up, we begin to apply values and beliefs we internalized from parents and teachers and taken for granted. I don't know of many children who haven't wondered about how we came into existence, and when an answer was God, asked (or wondered silently) where God came from. As adults, we appreciate the wisdom, permanency, and applicability of God's words in the Quran and see those values in a new light since we can reason through them now. Giving zakah is an intellectual exercise to a child but becomes a concrete aspect of generosity to the needy when we are able to give. The Quran teaches you and you apply its wisdom. Of course, some teachings are open to interpretation and must be reasoned through as millenia pass. The basic tenants are the same of submission, prayer, wealth sharing and so on. Originally posted by Legend of Zu: Given what you just said the skepticism exists very you believe! Once you believe how can you be skeptic? .

Skepticism is normal, I would think, when you believe in something you do not see with your own eyes, touch with your hand, and so on. I don't think questioning defeats the purpose of religion as we all know that God (a being more supreme than us) created us and we believe his word was delivered through the Quran. Questioning allows us to discern the righteous from the pretentious and when we willingly believe that this is the message of Allah, we are rightly rewarded for it. Originally posted by Amelia: And no Muslim should have any ‘suspicion’ or ‘skepticism’ regarding the word of Allah or for that matter the purpose of life… it defeats the purpose of belief… wouldn’t u agree? [/QB]

Literacy means the ability to read/write any language and is a prerequisite for picking up any additional languages. I don't understand why you put literacy in quotations and I am vague on what you think is a thesis of life. If you can't undersand why literacy is important in improving the lives of people in all its facets, then further debate is not necessary. I also don't understand what you mean by a 'secularization' of life and why you see personal life goals as being in contradiction with religious convictions. Originally posted by Khayr: It is not a 'given' to most people, hence the need for Revelation and constant reminders. According to traditional religions; One's life should be re-aligned constantly and consistently fit into the Thesis of Life-worshipping their Lord etc. So I can't understand where there can be a 'Secularization' of Life into Personal life goals and all else. Naden/libi, How will 'literacy' help others to achieve the Thesis of Life? And by litercacy, what language should they be 'literate' in and why? Once again, attacking other nomads..... [/QB]

Here's my take on the purpose of MY life: 1) Professionally and financially, to open my own HR consulting company and begin saving for retirement as soon as student loans are under control. Being covered in my later years is very important to help me keep my dignity and help my son with his future when not working anymore. 2) Personally, I will continue to support the building of elementary and intermediate schools back home. No sense giving money to universities that crop up every month when basic literacy is in peril. Raising the basic literacy of my people is central to my mission in life, it is the only way to life people out of misery and exploitation. I've volunteered in literacy programs in one form or another for the past 10 years. My effort in the past few has been largely financially supporting small schools and sending books and supplies whenever I can. The 'purpose' of my life, as I understood the question, is to use my education and principals to promote education. Worshipping God is a given and the purpose of the creation of mankind. Some of you can't seem to understand that an individual life can have a differing purpose than another. You've answered the question to your understanding and it would be great not to throw up all over anyone else's. Your faith won't fall out of your head if you're not preaching and mocking others.

What is the point behind these polls? Is there a similar one that asks men if they'd rather have a couple of inches added to a certain appendage than have IQ points added to their 'brains'? I can't comment on this ludicrous survey without seeing how the questions are phrased and who is the main target (seeing it was done by a retail store :rolleyes: ). These are the questions that make psychosocial surveys fodder for second rate talk shows and opinion editorials. Blaaaaah.

You posted the article, what is your opinion? Their arguments are a bore. These motherhood-nazis appear forthnightly and ignore the economic necessity of the work that women do (not to mention the personal and intellectual freedom that they are entitled to). Women work in every corner of the world. What he is truly advocating is their return to unpaid farming, social and child/old/infirm tending they've been doing. He's not the only one pushing this drivel. :rolleyes: . The old school argument of women vs. men in the sciences brought up by the unfortunate ex-Harvard president is another issue that has little to do with the issue of women in paid work.