Money alone? Yes, I have heard of those factories, especially the large number operating in the bigger cities like Muqdisho. They are good news, indeed. Originally posted by Danyer: quote: Given that Somalia had no government for 15 years, we seem to defy political and economic orthodoxy. People don't decide how the economy runs itself, money does. [/QB]

checkmate, I need to think more about this but the first thing that came to my mind is the establishment of small-business grants for individuals and families. They have similar projects in countries like Palestine, Mali and so on. I think some NGOs are fairly useless in capacity building projects (like giving families cattle or training to open small clothing factories). Again, I need to think about it more but perhaps the first few steps would be: 1) To find out who is now on the ground and how are they dealing with acute and chronic problems. 2) To establish a vision of short-term vs. long-term goals (for instance, fundraise now to help with the immediate starvation threat or have a longer term development plan of 5-20 years for the building of schools, hospitals and so on...). 3) To research how similar societies have built capacity and to collaborate with Somalis back home in examining the feasibility of smaller projects in their areas. It's all very broad and many Somalis are already doing some of this work but there is a great deal more to do.

No doubt. I heard of a gentleman with a photo-processing lab imported from Dubai making close to $5000 a month in a town not much bigger than this one. The money is there for whomever wants to tap into it. Not to mention that remittance money, unlike an economy-driven job market, is not subject to layoffs or downsizing. The poorest bloke in Canada can send some of his caydh money home. As someone posted earlier, what we really need is production but it seems we're skipping that step altogether. Given that Somalia had no government for 15 years, we seem to defy political and economic orthodoxy. Originally posted by Danyer: These investors simply want a big chunk of that steady flow of money. [/QB]

I've got some titles too.

Not so much negativity as skepticism. Anyone familiar with Western type malls is imagining that type of enterprise in a spot where incomes are most likely at subsistence levels. I would imagine an increase in disposable income and increased buying power are what lead to the development of malls not the other way around. But I am beginning to think that maybe the 'shops' in this mall are not what we imagine them to be and could simply be an extension of what we may have seen in any Somali city shopping strip (like bacadley in Xamar). Originally posted by ThePoint: [QB] I have difficulty understanding the negativity surrounding this proposed investment.

Originally posted by Castro: Me and KKK wheelchair are going special olympics style wrestling. :rolleyes: [/QB]

Looky here, if you promise not to cheat anymore, karma, the universe or fate, whichever you subscribe to will send you a sister with beauty and brains. Now, cheat again and your pick of the canine pound with peas for brains is all you deserve. Capisce! Originally posted by Johnny: At the begining , i diden´t realize this becouse my X was a hell of a beautiful mind.( it is my fault that she is gone becouse i cheated on her ) why is it difficult to get someone with both ? Anybody up for a take?

Interesting! I tried to help an elderly man in a electric wheelchair get onto a transit bus. All I could think of was how we were raised in Somalia to help the old and infirm, so I was rolling up my sleeves ready to heave and ho. I swear I almost committed a crime. Not only did he spit 'hands off my f***ing wheels, f***ing nigger', he backed up and crushed both toes with those fat wheels. I stumbled back barely able to stand with my cracked toenails and nearly missed the bus. If I see that old man on judgement day, I am jumping on his back and beating him like a pedophile who just moved into the neighbourhood. :mad: :mad: ^^^loool^ i helped a blind on to the train and he verbally abused me for the next few stops, ranting on about how he is not useless :rolleyes: since then never again cheers

I struggle with the thought of a petty thief being turned into a hardened criminal in a North American prison as well. As someone mentioned above, this type of escape is not really done for someone with a petty criminal past. However, I have heard of a Somali man who demonstrated depraved, predatory behaviour and raped several young Somali girls (some children). He, too, got a free ticket to Djibouti and there Somalia from then on. Apparently, he was facing life in prison. I was horrified because someone like him is probably beyond rehabilitation and will brutalize more children in Somalia, and probably get away with it for some time given the serious taboo associated with rape .

SB, And here I thought Freud was a cocaine-sniffing, horse-shagging voyeur, the closet homo stuff is news to me. My office takes enquiries into anything (including who to shag) between 8 and 4 every day. I'm ready . Originally posted by Socod_badne: According to J-Lee's world view, Frued was a closet homo, anyone using his ideas to make a point automatically becomes a suspected closet homo. So Naden, be forewarned for the forthcoming barrage of inquiries regarding your sexual orientation from Jimca Lee. Lol!

My bad, sista-friend. I reckoned some porn titles could only point a certain way. Me no stranger to projecting too . Originally posted by Jimca Lee: [QB] ^I didn't specify the type of frustration felt maandhay, it could of been asexual.

Okay, give us a hint: is this 'weird feeling' south of your belt or north of it? Originally posted by Jimca Lee: It's not "ouch, ouch": it's "ooch, ouch" and I refuse.

That's what you see in it, brother man. It's called projection, coined by Freud (a favourite pervo) . Originally posted by Jimca Lee: [QB] ^Are you that frustrated?

LOL makalajabti. Couldn't help thinking of a few movie titles (some raunchier than others): Olivia Does Orifice-city Revenge of the Orifice - Episodes I, II and III 16 Blocks of Orifice Brokeback Orifice Taming of the Orifice Originally posted by makalajabti: I was thinking rape, murder, theft, and you talking about "orifices". Officially you do t?whatever you want with your "orifices", as long as you don't hurt people with it :cool:

I hear what you're saying but I am weary of anything that glamorizes the tiring and often difficult business of raising children. I am also weary of views that marginalize the father/husband's role in the family. Both mother and father are central to the functioning of the family and society, no one person is the glue. Raising a child is serious business and the father is integral at every step, not just at the conception. Originally posted by Umm al_khair: motherhood has hounour and dignity for the role she plays in the family and thus the society as a whole infact she is the glue the holds it all togther.

Check out a documentary shot in Mogadishu maybe 2003 or 2004 (not sure) by these folks. It was televised by CBC and it talked about a radio station and its 2 Canadian operators: HornAfrik. Originally posted by Castro: Is there any documentary out there of life in Somalia now? You know, a multi-city, cross-section of society type interviews on life, living it and dying from it. I wonder.

I wonder how a mall that has 252 shops can survive in a region where most at or below subsistance level :confused: . It just seems this classic capitalist venture requires some movement of capital from consumer to vendor to government and so on. In the least, there would be many stores selling the same merchandise that would appeal to different tastes. That would presume purchasing power in the consumer. Maybe the stores are smaller than usual establishment, even smaller than the typical convenience type store where a little of everything is available.

Castro, I'm all for justice too. Makes me think us Somalis may never have a truth and reconciliation tribunal for war crimes as long as criminals have their own underground railroad. Originally posted by Castro: Ah Naden. You took the words right outta my mouth. I'd have him locked up right here. Once he's Bubba's girlfriend for a few months, he'll learn not to assault people. [/QB]

Agreed. A person should pay for the crimes they commit. Full stop! [/QB]

So, a friend mentioned in passing that a young Somali guy (about 18 or 19 years old) who assaulted another young Somali guy is now safely back home while assault charges are pending. This is probably the 2nd or 3rd time I hear about this type of alternative justice. As someone who finds accounts of prisons in any North American city horrific, I'm usually worried about a nomad being put away in one. What do you think should be done to these folks? 1. Let them go to jail here, who wants to see a criminal escape punishment? 2. Let them go to jail here. Let me know where they're going.I have family back home and I don't want imported psychos there. :eek: 3. Send them home. Prisons here are wretched and wound the soul. 4. Send them home. Maybe the difficult life would rehabilitate them. 5. What do I care? :mad: :mad: Goddamn felon nomad piece of shit!

Questioned from a different angle - is everyone who is hungry stressed out and troubled in your book? I don't buy that Okay, this has reached the point of tedium for me. I thought we were closer in opinion to the fundamental issues than this but I'm afraid that is not the case. For me, the answer to the question is quite simply yes. As to the claim of progress and renewal - I will post numerous sources either later on tonight or tomorrow. That's fine. I've said all that I was going to say about this topic but I do look forward to your examples on progress, it would certainly be a breath of fresh air.

Originally posted by Napoleon Bonaparte: Jalle Maj.Gen.Maxamed Siyaad Bare (Iilahay haa uu naxariisto) :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: I'm speechless.

Originally posted by Ahura: LoL...Seems like Naden has an admirer. Naden , you lucky cow, you. [/QB] I treat brother Khayr's jabs as friendship signs (like punches in an elementary schoolyard). I know he has a crush on me, looking all sexy and wanton in his mullah garb.

Originally posted by Castro: ^ Invest? Come on Danyer, atheer you possess more sense than that. Exactly who will be pulling up into the 150-car parking lot? Technicals? What about the CCTV? Is that for shoplifters? Who's gonna eat in the food court? The starving and thirsty masses? LOL . Reminds me of a special on TV about mega mall in Phillipines. People use the air-conditioned space to cool down and spend their days and the administration spends a small fortune in private security to prevent theft. With the country boiling socially, I eagerily await the fate of these malls.

ThePoint, Our back and forth is at risk of becoming masturbatory and a little tedious. Nonetheless, I appreciate your pointing out lapses of argument that happen in a heated discussion. Here are a few more. I think words are an important tool of communication and so I place a lot of value on specificity and clarity Great. Where do you see in my statement that ‘we clearly see this aspect of recovery and its impact on Somalis differently’ as an ‘easy dismissal’ of your point and how does this point to a conundrum in the stats and my views on the desperate state of Somalis? Am I dismissing your view when I describe it as different? For a person who so values clarity and specificity, you need to read better and respond more accurately. If you want to know what I think about the impact of Somalis returning and the economic impact of their investments, simply ask. Don’t deduce from a statement of disagreement and use it to discredit my argument that Somalia is in a miserable state based on the figures I used from the UNDP. As to any implications of the phrase 'culture and faith so untainted by kafirism' - there are a number……But those are ones you draw - and were not elucidated or drawn out by the poster. The tone of this peice can best be described as gushing because it focused solely on positive aspects. You see the post as focusing solely on positive aspects, I saw nothing positive. Is the implication I draw from the post illegitimate because it does not agree with yours? The sweeping and simplistic view of a ‘culture untainted by kafirism’, whatever that means, begs to be questioned and challenged. You are not challenging it or even responding to it because you see it as a perspective, a personal reflection that should not be held against the sister. That's fine. Again, words are important. But characterizations like hellhole are really intemperate, inaccurate and unilluminating. You used the word ‘hellhole’ in an earlier post and I gave what constitutes such as place in my world including a place where people flee in fear of life and limb, die in droves and are threatened with grave starvation. Was this intemperate? You took a part of my view (the fleeing), ignored the rest, and brought an asinine comparison with Mexico to challenge whether a fleeing Mexican and a fleeing Somali are in the same boat. The use of the word ‘hellhole’ to describe present day Somalia is your pet and a sticking point for you that you’re trying so hard to disprove. I believe my stats on infant mortality and hunger are illuminating in a discussion of hunger and poverty. Where are your concrete examples of ‘signs of recovery’ you falsely and liberally accused me of dismissing? I cannot dismiss something that was not substantiated. Now personal reflections I can shout at as I have done with the sister’s post, but I have not dismissed a missing argument. From the quote I used - you only stated the fleeing aspect as the primary determinant of indicting the society in which it occurred. Wrong. This is what I said in its entirety, you saw what you wanted to see to bring in the Mexico example: Hundreds of thousands ran away, hundreds of thousands more died, tens of thousands are dying now of hunger and disease, not to mention the hundreds who will venture out to the sea every few weeks and die there. That pretty much defines a hell-hole in my world. In all cases, you object to an indictment of a society you think I am doing, I believe I am commenting on a present state of affairs. Your first paragraph posits little to argue about. But the question becomes: much of sub-saharan Africa registers similar stats - are they then all hellholes - the lot of them? You are obviously troubled by the word hellhole. When I see these similar stats you allude to, in my world they are akin to living in a state of serious desperation. Subsaharan Africa has hideous AIDS rates, massive corruption and constant threats of widespread starvation. What I consider to be a hellhole I have explained several times, it’s clear that you don’t see it the same way. Her point was that faith helps to create a life that is 'stress free' and faith helps to alleviate their 'frown..and depression'. And, again, this was her PERSEPECTIVE and OBSERVATION. It is neither difficult to understand or to accept the sister’s perspective. As I may have stated earlier, it is not a rare view of life and I have run into many variations of these views. My responses are largely angry and directed at nearly everyone who espoused such views. I always wonder if people who think any life can be ‘stress free’ especially in the face of dire economic conditions are naturally naïve and incapable of seeing complexities or people unable to deal with the pain and suffering of others. In both cases, my blood boils at the simplicity of it all. Isn't one allowed leeway and freedom with one's own perspective and observations? I just find the attack on her persepective rather strange. But, again, this was her persepective and observation. She, apparently, did not see much suffering. Must she post on something she did not observe and was not part of her perspective? So you don’t think it was her person attacked in this thread, rather her perspective? Good. That she did not see any suffering while irksome is hers alone. In answer to your question, no one can tell another person to see the world a certain way. However, when she made large generalizations of Somalis in Somali and the West, some responded with suspicion. She can sing her perspective up and down and people can voice their suspicions and disagreements as well. The post does not say that hunger, stress, and depression do not exist. The post is confined to a particular perspective. The post speaks of a stress-free life. Being free of something means it does not occur there. True, she did say hunger existed and no one claimed that she said otherwise. It is the reflection of the mental state of hungry people that caused the disagreement. If you take it upon yourself to digress from the original post and launch into a discussion about the numerous ills affecting Somalia - then that is another thread altogether and is definitely off-topic That’s your opinion and you can raise your objections all you want. You do not set the parameters of a discussion and talking about social ills affecting Somalia when the issue of hungry Somalis comes up is not off-topic. A narrower discussion may be to your liking but the chance to discuss any relevant factors are open to people in the thread, and this includes Brother Khayr’s single-syllabic comments. What is so bizarre and intolerable about one positing her perspective? Or must the perspective posted conform to your pre-conceived notions? It is not bizarre or intolerable but object to suspicion and debate. The dismissing and degrading of individual perspective is trite and superficial in itself!........And the hostile and dismissive tone I found too much also………..the nasty tone and dismissive content were what bothered me. Okay. You find my tone, use of language and other tools bothersome. I can take that, I’m a big girl. I reserve shouting for what I perceive to be lazy and deceptive ideas and I reply as such. I do try not to be dismissive or degrading of any ideas, but to be challenging. If that means turning on the bullshit meter and calling it as such, so be it. The rigour of your argument decides the legitimacy of it - for the intelligent and unbiased person. Fair enough. My arguments maybe pessimistic but I backed them up with statistics and personal examples. The sister waxed poetic about her reflections and you posted counter arguments including an unfollowed-through comparison between countries and an unsubstantiated claim of signs of recovery leading to an improvement. You have not supported this claim yet you accused me of dismissing it easily. You’re obviously a man/woman who values a rigorous argument that is well supported with examples. Perhaps the intelligent and unbiased person in you can apply the same rigour to your arguments.