National identity VS tribal identity

[Haatu]

^According to your logic Somalis want to join with the Muslim Oromos as well?

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

Haatu;907344 wrote:

^According to your logic Somalis want to join with the Muslim Oromos as well?

Why not even though joining with oromos isn't productive i say Join with Yemen

Language and Religion were the main factors that drove the union in the 70s the oromos were called Somali aboows. They wanted the Somali republic to free them from Mengistu eventhough these were mainly the Arsi oromo who were muslim. The tulamo oromo are Christians and have lots of admixture with Amhaaras they were mengistus closest followers. Ethiopia oo dhan dad aynu isla jaan qaadi karno mahe inaga fogeyaa duulkaas wa duul nijaseed.

[QansaxMeygaag]

Your core identity is that which you can't change (Somali I'd say, try going to a river and washing it out...); you can change religion and with modern technology even sex. Identity is very complex and difficult to reduce it to an either/or argument...

 

Don't be so sure about clan identity; it can be changed. There are many sub-clans who have moved from their ancestral lands and moved into other areas and adopted other clans as their new identity. in my own clan, there are some sections known to have undergone such a transformation (both in-migrants and out-migrants). They are accepted and no one holds that against them...

[QansaxMeygaag]

Apophis;907524 wrote:

^ good post and welcome to the forum.

Thanks, am new to this so expecting a honeymoon period from SOLers till an adequate shaashsaar period of say 7 days?

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

QansaxMeygaag;907520 wrote:

Your core identity is that which you can't change (Somali I'd say, try going to a river and washing it out...); you can change religion and with modern technology even sex. Identity is very complex and difficult to reduce it to an either/or argument...

 

Don't be so sure about clan identity; it can be changed. There are many sub-clans who have moved from their ancestral lands and moved into other areas and adopted other clans as their new identity. in my own clan, there are some sections known to have undergone such a transformation (both in-migrants and out-migrants). They are accepted and no one holds that against them...

 

Are you referring to the Ethnic Somali identity or the National Somali identity.

[Safferz]

QansaxMeygaag;907520 wrote:

Your core identity is that which you can't change (Somali I'd say, try going to a river and washing it out...); you can change religion and with modern technology even sex. Identity is very complex and difficult to reduce it to an either/or argument...

 

Don't be so sure about clan identity; it can be changed. There are many sub-clans who have moved from their ancestral lands and moved into other areas and adopted other clans as their new identity. in my own clan, there are some sections known to have undergone such a transformation (both in-migrants and out-migrants). They are accepted and no one holds that against them...

Well said. It's also troubling to see the belief that clan (as it is understood today) has been a timeless feature of Somali society, when it's quite clear that historically we've seen a transformation from fluid kinship networks to politicized tribe/tribalism, beginning in the colonial era and crystallized under the post-independence governments. Tribalism is MODERN. To speak to the OP's point, I think one can argue that clan identity only became preeminent after the Civil War -- with the collapse of the dictatorship (one that actively exploited clan difference despite presenting itself as nationalist, I should add) and in turn the philosophical principle of citizen and nation, everyday Somalis sought refuge in the most basic political unit in Somali society, the clan.

[QansaxMeygaag]

Xaaji Xunjuf;907535 wrote:

Are you referring to the Ethnic Somali identity or the National Somali identity.

Ethnic Xaaji, which in the case of Somalia overlaps a great deal with the national. Don't ask me to quantify "a great deal", short of up-to-date population figures, I am talking qualitatively here. I am aware that the two have been conflated and as a result great injustice done to those who are Somali by nationality/citizenship (not ethnicity) as a result of this conflation e.g. for lack of better words, Somali "Bantu" and other non-ethnic groups...

 

Perhaps the oxymoron "Somalian" to distinguish citizenship from ethnicity is not that bad a term afterall?

[QansaxMeygaag]

Apophis;907567 wrote:

You should be so lucky

 

Ps: prepare to be accused of being a script i.e an exiled returnee lol

Now see what you have done; can't get Kylie Minogue's "I should be so lucky, lucky lucky lucky" out of my head...

 

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

Safferz;907771 wrote:

Well said. It's also troubling to see the belief that clan (as it is understood today) has been a timeless feature of Somali society, when it's quite clear that historically we've seen a transformation from fluid kinship networks to politicized tribe/tribalism, beginning in the colonial era and crystallized under the post-independence governments. Tribalism is MODERN. To speak to the OP's point, I think one can argue that clan identity only became preeminent after the Civil War -- with the collapse of the dictatorship (one that actively exploited clan difference despite presenting itself as nationalist, I should add) and in turn the philosophical principle of citizen and nation, everyday Somalis sought refuge in the most basic political unit in Somali society, the clan.

It also existed prior to colonialism

Maakhir sultanate

Maguartania sultanate

A.Juraan Sultanate

The House of Guled sultanate

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

QansaxMeygaag;907777 wrote:

Ethnic Xaaji, which in the case of Somalia overlaps a great deal with the national. Don't ask me to quantify "a great deal", short of up-to-date population figures, I am talking qualitatively here. I am aware that the two have been conflated and as a result great injustice done to those who are Somali by nationality/citizenship (not ethnicity) as a result of this conflation e.g. for lack of better words, Somali "Bantu" and other non-ethnic groups...

 

Perhaps the oxymoron "Somalian" to distinguish citizenship from ethnicity is not that bad a term afterall?

Yeah the 2 can be confused sometime because in the past you had to be just an Ethnic Somali to be a Somali national today's with Djiboutis independence and Somaliland defacto independence. And the O'gaden region being part of Ethiopia , the Somalia national identity is confined between raskambooni raas caseer Somalia.

[Haatu]

^Not really. I can be born in Gsa and still get a Somali passport.

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

Haatu;907867 wrote:

^Not really. I can be born in Gsa and still get a Somali passport.

Are you sure thats possible with the new constitution so what will define you're Somaliness what if a Kikiyo speaks Somali and has Somali features.

[Safferz]

Xaaji Xunjuf;907852 wrote:

It also existed prior to colonialism

Maakhir sultanate

Maguartania sultanate

A.Juraan Sultanate

The House of Guled sultanate

I didn't say clan (as a form of kinship and social organization) didn't exist prior to colonialism, of course it did. I said tribalism and politicized clan identity is a modern phenomenon.

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

Safferz;907884 wrote:

I didn't say clan (as a form of kinship and social organization) didn't exist prior to colonialism, of course it did. I said tribalism and politicized clan identity is a modern phenomenon.

Well ofcourse 4.5 clan formula didn't exist but the clan identity was pretty much alive there was no such thing as a Somali identity not in the form of a statehood nor in the form of an Ethnic group. Ethnic Somali nationalism became relevant during colonialism especially in the last years of British Italian French colonialism.

[Haatu]

Xaaji Xunjuf;907871 wrote:

Are you sure thats possible with the new constitution so what will define you're Somaliness what if a Kikiyo speaks Somali and has Somali features.

I still can. They changed it a bit but ethnic Somalis still can. Even if they change it again, my mum is a Somali citizen so I'll get a passport come what may.