Can expatriate Somalis rebuild their country?

[Chimera]

Blackflash;864905 wrote:

Qualifications mean squat when you don't reference your sources. The fact that several of them have completed doctoral studies should should have stressed the importance of citing one's work. There's a reason why you can't get away with it in school, and my pessimism in regards to this document is one of them.

Apophis;864906 wrote:

^^ when it comes to data, it's not about trusting the authorities that what they say is right, but about the data standing on it's own. It wouldn't matter who wrote/was consulted. The data presented must have a way of being verified independently otherwise there is no way to know it's accuracy.

Plenty of studies where information not yet published or referenced in journals circulate in the world of academia. The team that compiled this plan and the general SL administration itself have yet to be accused of playing with statistics or facts. This is a study by Somaliland for Somaliland, any organisation interested in knowing more about their data would have the option to visit their office or contact them, but that wasn't SL's original intention, they created a plan for the future and researched it independently. It's been a year, and not a single organisation has even hinted at being suspicious towards the make-up and content of this development plan.

 

I can find dozens of journalists and studies dismissing or scrutinizing the Ethiopian's regime's figures on their economy, I can find dozen of sources scrutinising the TFG and their books, but there is yet to be a study that dismisses the current population statistics of Hargeisa, therefore this 'don't trust the authorities' stance is misplaced.

 

Neither of you have provided me with a single counter study, source or statistic that would support a below 500k population for that city, but at the same time want me to embrace this argument, based on what? A mere opinion originating from map-measurements, or picture comparison with Hong Kong? At least I provided a credible source.

[Che -Guevara]

Wax naga muran badan majiro,

 

N we gonna build country. Xaasha lool

[Chimera]

Apophis;864909 wrote:

This is interesting but it tells us nothing about the validity of the data in discussion. You appear to be basing your arguments on the strength of the authority not what the data says/doesn't say. Elementary mistake.

 

I do not have to provide anything to counter what your're stating/ the NDP states, the onus is on the claiming to provide sufficient verifiable data for his/her claims. This is basic stuff, I do not know why you're complicating it.

The onus is not on me to provide anything, evendo I have done so on several ocassions and each time with credible sources, which are most definitely valid. Someone here is disputing a population figure used by hundreds of media-outlets, studies, journals and books, but doesn't give us a single shred of evidence outside of a map-measuring-program to support his opposition to the general concensus.

 

A case of self-importance gone too far.

[GaraadMon]

Chimera;864932 wrote:

The onus is not on me to provide anything, evendo I have done so on several ocassions and each time with credible sources, which are most definitely valid. Someone here is disputing a population figure used by hundreds of media-outlets, studies, journals and books, but doesn't give us a single shred of evidence outside of a map-measuring-program to support his opposition to the general concensus.

 

A case of self-importance gone too far.

You mean the same media that has been quoting the grossly exaggerated figures for the Kibera slum over the past few years?

 

It is now official: Kibera is not the biggest slum in Africa. The 2009 Kenya Population and Housing Census shows that one of the world's most famous slums houses just 170,070 residents, not one million, as previously believed.......While many may dispute these figures, I find it highly unlikely that the margin of error in the census was so huge that the population of a settlement dropped dramatically to one-fifth of its previous estimate in just a few years - unless the drop can be explained by a natural disaster or epidemic.......The more likely scenario is that, in the absence of authoritative statistics, the population figure for Kibera was entirely made up to suit the interests of particular groups. And because no one publicly challenged the figures, a lie became the truth.

 

 

Source:

allAfrica

[Chimera]

^Red herring and a fallacy; the media world isn't some monolithic creature all answering to the same Murdochian boss. What is claimed or disputed in one part of the world has no bearing to what is accepted in another by plenty of respected and peer-reviewed institutions. General consensus on the figures is clear, you still have to provide something more credible than a map-measuring program.

[GaraadMon]

Chimera;865089 wrote:

^Red herring and a fallacy; the media world isn't some monolithic creature all answering to the same Murdochian boss. What is claimed or disputed in one part of the world has no bearing to what is accepted in another by plenty of respected and peer-reviewed institutions. General consensus on the figures is clear,

you still have to provide something more credible than a map-measuring program.

Stop focusing on the fact that it's a map measuring program, it's simple 2000 year old Maths from which I can cite Pythagoras and Euclid. That simple math gives me a population density which doesn't correspond with the cityscape. There aren't any massive slums I've read of in Hargeisa and neither is there any large scale condo development.

 

The data is shoddy at best and nefarious at worst, and there is glaringly obvious evidence to support the former. I'm sorry if you can't see it and are unwilling to question the data at hand.

[Chimera]

You basing your entire argument on that map-measuring program that is clearly outdated, it doesn't even cover the entire city, so its definitely important to point that out. Secondly, every single angle that you have tried to use to dismiss the concensus has been countered, from your biased picture examples, to the number of households, to the size of the average household, with historic and modern data. You have then tried to descredit the authorative body responsible for the research because they didn't cite their sources, which is comical since they're the 'source' who researched it independently, and no respected body or institution has called them out on it.

 

Then when I pointed out that the population figure has been a consensus amongst academics, media and journalists, you came back with an article on Kibera and how the media inflated the figures, and you used a GOVERNMENT INSTITUTION based figure to prove your point. This is hilarious, its not even a case of 'let's agree to disagree'. only a lack of substance on your part to make a clear case to support your 'fringe' theory.

[GaraadMon]

Chimera;865097 wrote:

You basing your entire argument on that map-measuring program that is clearly outdated, it doesn't even cover the entire city, so its definitely important to point that out. Secondly, every single angle that you have tried to use to dismiss the concensus has been countered, from your biased picture examples, to the number of households, to the size of the average household, with historic and modern data. You have then tried to descredit the authorative body responsible for the research because they didn't cite their sources, which is comical since they're the 'source' who researched it independently, and no respected body or institution has called them out on it.

 

Then when I pointed out that the population figure has been a consensus amongst academics, media and journalists, you came back with an article on Kibera and how the media inflated the figures, and you used a GOVERNMENT INSTITUTION based figure to prove your point. This is hilarious, its not even a case of 'let's agree to disagree'. only a lack of substance on your part to make a clear case to support your 'fringe' theory.

You're assuming that I discarded the government 'data' because of bias. Had you actually read my paid attention you would know that the entire premise of my argument was the veracity of the government backed numbers. You also referred to my Kibera reference as being a red herring when in fact it's counter to the notion that the usage of numbers in the media isn't a authentication of said numbers. The Kenya National Bureau of Statistics publishes it's census and survey reports as can be seen here:Kenyan Population and Housing Census 2009. It details the methodology and extent of the survey.

 

The document you linked to is not survey and does not provide any backing for it's data. That report wouldn't even qualify for any master's program, let alone the millions in foreign aid it's requesting. I posted my personal criticisms of the estimates and you managed find bias where there is none.

[ElPunto]

I agree with Blackflash. If you look at the sizes of Somali cities on Google - many don't support the population estimates claimed for them. Population densities would have to be multiples of the most densely populated places on earth.

 

Chimera - Blackflash's point is a data check - ie does this make sense not a definitive estimate on population.

[Chimera]

Blackflash;865167 wrote:

You're assuming that I discarded the government 'data' because of bias. Had you actually read my paid attention you would know that the entire premise of my argument was the veracity of the government backed numbers.

 

You also referred to my Kibera reference as being a red herring when in fact it's counter to the notion that the usage of numbers in the media isn't a authentication of said numbers. The Kenya National Bureau of Statistics publishes it's census and survey reports as can be seen here:

Kenyan Population and Housing Census 2009

. It details the methodology and extent of the survey.

 

The document you linked to is not survey and does not provide any backing for it's data. That report wouldn't even qualify for any master's program, let alone the millions in foreign aid it's requesting. I posted my personal criticisms of the

estimates

and you managed find bias where there is none.

You claimed that they most likely took it 'straight from their azz' and this is pretty damning in my opinion if you don't have a bias against the researching team in question. They based their estimate on independent research and those of multiple groups, all of which are mentioned in the plan itself, some directly and some not; from the water agency to the telecom companies. This however doesn't discredit the plan in question, they don't need to provide you with a source on something that is generally accepted.

 

Your dismissing governmental data, not published fully, while at the same time want me to embrace your original research based on a map-measuring program which is neither all-inclusive about the size of the city nor allows you to have a clue about the individual household sizes, which ultimately has a huge impact on the '2000 year old math' your employing. You used Hong Kong as an example then posted a small surburb as a reference for Hargeisa, and you want me to believe you don't harbour a bias?

 

I know your a teacher sxb, but there is no need to keep referencing academic tests as a measuring stick, the researching team is not trying to get qualifications, they already have it. They made a sound plan for the future and used empirical evidence drawn from multiple sources to create estimates, therefore the content is backed by research. There is not a single institution, or group, or published individual out there disputing their figures, only here on SOL is there a debate about these concensus figures.

 

That is fine, and you have every right to engage in such original research backed by nothing, but this doesn't make it factual, nor does it give your standpoint more credibility against the general concensus, let's make that clear at least. Population figures and statistics is something that I'm very interested in, considering my personal business plans for the future and truthfully brother I hoped you would provide me with something I could put my teeth into, something alternative that would allow me to get a better picture of the situation back home, but instead you have only confirmed to me that the current data, especially that by the independent team in question, is the only credible content available.