A CHILLLL ON PROGRESSIVVE ISLAMM

[Khayr]

Salamz,

 

Just wanted to share this with my fellow nomads

A chill on progressive Islam Muslim Canadian CongressMuslim Canadian CongressHomeWho we areOur missionEventsContactDonationsJoinArticlesLinks October 14, 2005

 

A chill on progressive Islam

 

By Tarek Fatah and Munir Pervaiz

The National Post, Toronto

 

The words were chilling: "In the midst of our community we have members who are bent upon smearing Islam, ridiculing the Koran, badmouthing Mohamed."

 

Canadian Islamic Congress chairman Mohamed Elmasry was writing about Muslims who oppose Sharia law in Canada (including us), and reacting to Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty's September decision to end provincially sanctioned religious arbitration in family-law disputes. Stung by a political defeat he had not anticipated, Elmasry accused his Muslim opponents of being traitors to their faith -- an allegation that is read as a charge of apostasy, with all its ugly consequences.

 

Elmasry is not alone. After labelling such Canadian luminaries as Margaret Atwood, June Callwood and Maude Barlow "Islamophobes," the proponents of Sharia have turned their attention to co-religionists. Through articles on their Web sites, speeches at Muslim conferences and, most recently, on the doorsteps of the Ontario Legislature, fundamentalists have declared that Muslims who do not support Sharia courts in Canada are opposed to Islam itself.

 

The accusation that we are smearing Islam is without foundation. It is also dangerous. Such rhetoric is commonplace in the Muslim world, specifically in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt and Pakistan, where allegations of apostasy are used to silence critics and human rights workers. In some societies, apostasy charges are followed by inquisitions, expulsions from the community and physical violence.

 

Some interpretations of Sharia call for apostates to be killed. Such views have forced many Muslims to flee their countries of birth and take refuge in tolerant Western nations such as Canada. To now find ourselves harassed in Canada by some Muslims here is alarming and ironic. It is especially sad that Mohamed Elmasry and his allies have chosen the holy month of Ramadan to launch their broadside on progressive Muslims.

 

There are other troubling indicators afoot. Late in September, at the Toronto book festival Word On The Street, another Islamic organization, The Islamic Council of North America, distributed free booklets written by Abu Ala Maudoodi, a leader of the Muslim Brotherhood.

 

In the book, Maudoodi exhorts ordinary Muslims to launch jihad, as in armed struggle, against non-Muslims. "Jihad is part of this overall defence of Islam," he writes. "This supreme sacrifice is the responsibility of all Muslims."

 

He then goes on to label Muslims who refuse the call for armed jihad as apostates: "Jihad is as much a primary duty as are daily prayers or fasting. One who avoids it is a sinner. His every claim to being a Muslim is doubtful. He is plainly a hypocrite who fails in the test of sincerity and all his acts of worship are a sham, a worthless, hollow show of deception."

 

If such hateful and inflammatory literature can be distributed in downtown Toronto, one can imagine what is being said in the confines of private gatherings.

Islamic extremists are taking advantage of Canada's liberal democracy to spread fascist ideology.

 

Despite threats of ostracization, excommunication and hardship, we believe

it is the duty of Muslim Canadians to defend the separation of religion and state in Canada.

It is our obligation to ensure that "one law for all Canadians" is understood as the foundation of equality that we Muslims desire.

It is imperative that we ensure Muslim women, queers, religious minorities, the disabled and the marginalized are protected.

As for non-Muslims, they must answer this question:

Why do they tolerate hate literature that promotes jihad against non-Muslims and labels progressive Muslims as apostates?

 

The Muslim Canadian Congress believes there is no place for inquisitions in Canadian society.

These threats can only be stopped when accusations of apostasy are listed as the hate crimes they are and made punishable by law.

Otherwise, this incitement to violence will have a tragic outcome.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Tarek Fatah is host of the weekly TV show, The Muslim Chronicle. Munir Pervaiz is secretary of the Pakistani Writers Forum. Both sit on the Board of the Muslim Canadian Congress.

 

How do these guys compare to Bashir Goth?

 

Do you agree, disagree with them?

[Caano Geel]

dude, i dont really think it compares, bashiir was voicing an opinion on what he saw as a paradigm shift in the cultural values of somali's with regard to the place and value of our culture.

 

This is about a specific action to change the legislative structure of a soverieng state.

 

If ppl feel that canada does not suite their moral values, they should try to get them introduced through the political and legislative processes that are available. If their ideas are seen to be of value to the population i'm sure they will be accepted. if not they will be rejected. If they cant live with the rejection they should pack their bags and head for a place which implemen ts them....

 

 

As far jihad goes.... i think blood letting as source of ajar has got to such peoples heads. Judgement is not ours to make.. i'm not too sure about were being progressive come in .

[Khayr]

Originally posted by Caano Geel:

dude, i dont really think it compares, bashiir was voicing an opinion on what he saw as a paradigm shift in the cultural values of somali's with regard to the place and value of our culture.

 

This is about a specific action to change the legislative structure of a soverieng state.

 

If ppl feel that canada does not suite their moral values, they should try to get them introduced through the political and legislative processes that are available. If their ideas are seen to be of value to the population i'm sure they will be accepted. if not they will be rejected. If they cant live with the rejection they should pack their bags and head for a place which implemen ts them....

 

 

As far jihad goes.... i think blood letting as source of ajar has got to such peoples heads. Judgement is not ours to make.. i'm not too sure about were being progressive come in .

Parallels btwn these writers and Bashir G.

 

-T.F. and Munir P. critique muslims, so does Bashir G.

 

-T.F. and Munir P. are considered as a 'Progressive muslims' and from what I have read of Bashir G.'s writing, he can be considered as a

'Progressive muslim'

 

-Some folks consider T.F. to be an 'apostate', likewise some people consider Bashir G. to be an 'apostate'.

 

But is one worse the other?

 

Is it right to call them 'Apostates'?

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Khayr:

Salamz,

 

Do you agree, disagree with them?

Agree with them completely. And the imams calling for death and destruction of kafirs AND fellow muslims IN Darul Harub should be expelled (warn them once or twice, if they persist, kick them out). They're no different from Nazis. Canada expells former Nazis and leaders of neo-Nazi groups.

[Khayr]

Originally posted by Socod_badne:

quote:Originally posted by Khayr:

Salamz,

 

Do you agree, disagree with them?

Agree with them completely. And the imams calling for death and destruction of kafirs AND fellow muslims IN Darul Harub should be expelled (warn them once or twice, if they persist, kick them out). They're no different from Nazis. Canada expells former Nazis and leaders of neo-Nazi groups.

But what if they are justing read an ayat from the quran and really not speaking 'JUST THEIR OPINION'. :confused:

 

These threats can only be stopped when accusations of apostasy are listed as the hate crimes they are and made punishable by law.

If the Quran and Hadith tell us, in the words of

 

NGONGE 'CALL A SPADE A SPADE', then

 

is a muslim who uses Quran and Hadith for their

 

Primary Sources of Reference to uphold their

 

Religion, committing a 'HATE CRIME',

 

breaking a 'law'

 

How can you equate a muslim with a Nazi?

 

-One judges according to REVELATION and the other-NAzi, judges according to NATIONALISM and ARIANISM!!!

[Pi]

in the words of

NGONGE 'CALL A SPADE A SPADE'

 

Was NGONGE alive back in 1542? The man is older than I initially thought.

[FatB]

what we fail to understand is that the shir'a can not work under the juridiction of western courts. these mordern capitalists work for the individual rather than as a collective. this is a starck contrast to the shir'a.

 

tying to emilate and incorporated the shir'a into western sociaty is like trying to mix water and oil, it is simply imposible.

[Caano Geel]

lets address them one at a time,

 

Originally posted by Khayr:

1. -T.F. and Munir P. critique muslims, so does Bashir G.

Isnt that the point of a discourse?

 

Originally posted by Khayr:

2. -T.F. and Munir P. are considered as a 'Progressive muslims' and from what I have read of Bashir G.'s writing, he can be considered as a

'Progressive muslim'

and what does that imply?

 

 

Originally posted by Khayr:

3. -Some folks consider T.F. to be an 'apostate', likewise some people consider Bashir G. to be an 'apostate'.

why?

 

Originally posted by Khayr:

4. But is one worse the other?

define worse?

 

Originally posted by Khayr:

5. Is it right to call them 'Apostates'?

because you disagree with them?

 

Originally posted by Khayr:

But what if they are justing read an ayat from the quran and really not speaking 'JUST THEIR OPINION

This difficult to take this out of context. The point you refer to discusses opinions about:

 

' imams calling for death and destruction of kafirs AND fellow muslims .... 'f they persist, kick them out'.

 

So the point is very serious. This is not a disagreement on whether an imaam should be able to grant a mariage licence, but a death sentence. For me at least, thats outside the scope of human juristiction.

 

Originally posted by Khayr:

CALL A SPADE A SPADE

outside the scope of the basic tenants i find it difficult to see how you justify this. look at the muslim umma, and within that there is variance in interpertation. this does not refer to core beliefs, but customs and practices, a pakistani muslims values and norms are not ness. the same as a saudi's, a ugandan's, a canadians or a somali's. now if your interpertation is correct and possibly disagrees with any of these what you saying is 'they are all wrong'. now this is not an accident. it is a basic factor in islam which has helped it spread, because it is more easily accomodating to local value i.e. islam had travelled far more consideraly with trade than invasion.

 

Islam does not instinctively have a heirarchy, there are no chief imans, like the pope and so on, there highly respected people, but they do not have the power to systematically create a uniform orthodox like the pope. In islam everyone is equally close, which means they have no superioty other than their wisdom and knowledge to make change. Now this means we have evaluate the value of wisdom and learning, which again is culturally bound.

 

so in this context how do you define your 'right' from their 'wrong'

 

Originally posted by tHe oNe aNd OnLy :

shir'a into western society is like trying to mix water and oil, it is simply imposible

wholesale intergration probably not, but that doesnt stop you from practicing your faith or follwing a shir'a as apart in your own life. The individualist thing allows you to do that.

[Khayr]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Khayr:

 

1. -T.F. and Munir P. critique muslims, so does Bashir G.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Isnt that the point of a discourse?

Partly!

 

A co-relation exists btwn the two and a comparison can be made as to -Which is Worse?

 

Originally posted by Khayr:

 

2. -T.F. and Munir P. are considered as a 'Progressive muslims' and from what I have read of Bashir G.'s writing, he can be considered as a

'Progressive muslim'

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

and what does that imply?

It implies that there are similiarities btwn the two and asks the question what makes one a 'PROGRESSIVE MUSLIM'? Are there different levels of 'Progressive Muslims' i.e. one is a kafir, a murtad (apostate) and another is just a fasiq (corrupt muslim)!

 

Originally posted by Khayr:

 

3. -Some folks consider T.F. to be an 'apostate', likewise some people consider Bashir G. to be an 'apostate'.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

why?

SOME MUSLIMS CONSIDER THEM TO BE 'MOCKING'

 

the DEEN and making what is HALAL to be HARAM and

 

what is HARAM to be HALAL aka PREVERTING THE

 

DEEN!

 

 

Originally posted by Khayr:

 

4. But is one worse the other?

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

define worse?

By Worse, in this context, I mean to ask who is

 

really the 'APOSTATE' and who can be considered

 

a 'FASIQ' (corrupt muslim).

 

Who is trying to do more Damage to the Islamic Tradition?

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Khayr:

 

5. Is it right to call them 'Apostates'?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

because you disagree with them?

Geel,

 

The authors of the article are trying to make

 

a case for themselves agains those who call them

 

APOSTATES

 

and are saying that it should be considered

 

a 'HATE CRIME'. That is what the article covers.

 

The authors are saying that they have

 

been 'Vilified'!!!

 

 

imams calling for death and destruction of kafirs AND fellow muslims .... 'f they persist, kick them out'.

 

So the point is very serious. This is not a disagreement on whether an imaam should be able to grant a mariage licence, but a death sentence. For me at least, thats outside the scope of human juristiction.

Human Jurisdiction???

What do you mean? :confused:

[Caano Geel]

Human Jurisdiction???

is the judgment the we can make as humans, i dont feel that a death sentence is one of them.

 

carry on,

thanks

[Khayr]

outside the scope of the basic tenants i find it difficult to see how you justify this. look at the muslim umma, and within that there is variance in interpertation. this does not refer to core beliefs, but customs and practices, a pakistani muslims values and norms are not ness. the same as a saudi's, a ugandan's, a canadians or a somali's. now if your interpertation is correct and possibly disagrees with any of these what you saying is 'they are all wrong'. now this is not an accident. it is a basic factor in islam which has helped it spread, because it is more easily accomodating to local value i.e. islam had travelled far more consideraly with trade than invasion.

 

Values and Norms are Established by the ULAMA/Scholars of ISLAM from the time to of the Rasul (salallahu caliyhe waslim) to today, 1426 yrs later.

 

Values and Norms are not rooted in CULTURE for

the MUSLIM UMMAH.

 

If something is incongruent with the Islamic Tradition i.g. Women leading salat, Dating, Pluralism, then it is to be REJECTED. Then is is a Biddah Sayyiha (BAD INNOVATION) and is to be REJECTED.

 

 

In Islam, there is [uNITY in DIVERSITY] as long

 

as their is an Agreement on the USUL ul DEEN,

 

i.e. 5 PILLARS OF ISLAM, 6 PILLARS OF IMAN (MIN'm).

 

However, there is NO UNIFORMITY in Methodolgy , but this does not validate making something that has been halal or haram in islam for 1400 yrs and making it otherwise.

 

i.e. suggesting that men and women are equal, making jiehaaad haram, making homosexuality acceptable etc.

 

 

Islam does not instinctively have a heirarchy

• Is the deaf = to the Blind?

• Is the sick person = to the Healthy

  person?

• Is the King = to the peasant?

Well, in islam it can be asked

 

• Is the Alim, Scholar = to the avg. Muslim

after all the rasul (salihe caliyhe waslim) said that the Ulama (MUSLIM SCHOLARS) are the Inheritors of the Prophets and Allah said that the 'ULAMA FEAR HIM (GOD) THE MOST'.

 

• Is the fasiq (corrupt muslim) = to the Believer who prays all night?

Afterall, Allah speaks negatively of the fasiquun (plural for fasiq (corrupt muslim) in the quran and speaks highly of the Mumin, Believer.

 

] Does a Hierarchy exist now?

 

so in this context how do you define your 'right' from their 'wrong'

Through the Islamic Tradition via the Seerah, Life of the Rasul (salAllahu caliyhe waslim)via the interpretation of the Majority of Ulama (1400yrs of Ulama who utilized Quran, Sunna, Shariah ).

 

If we don't judge by this, then everything becomes subject to 'TABOOISM', meaning it is

RIGHT TODAY, but if people agree on it, it can be made to be WRONG - TOMORROW!!!

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Khayr:

But what if they are justing read an ayat from the quran and really not speaking 'JUST THEIR OPINION'.

:confused:

Don't give me that jive. You know I wasn't refering to your 'average' imam, performing innocuous religious duties. I'm talking about Imams who were caught with their hands in the cockie jar. With video and audio tapes nailing them in the act of hatemongering, calling for death and destruction, instructing mosque attenders to kill civilians, kill women and children...the whole gamut I'm sure you're familiar with by now.

 

Hatemongering from holy prelates?!?!?

 

I'm sorry but when I go to a mosque I expect the Imam to better control of his emotions then mosque goers. I expect him to diffuse tensiosn , anger and rage, not inflame them with firey sermons. Where is the wisdom in telling the solution to every problem is righteous vengence?

 

These threats can only be stopped when accusations of apostasy are listed as the hate crimes they are and made punishable by law.

I don't know about that but if you live in Gaal land and it is unlawful to utter accusations of apostasty, then you shouldn't accuse. That is my view, respect the laws of the nation you reside in or leave.

 

Anyways, accusations are worth dime a dozen! Anyone can accuse anyone of just about anything.

[Khayr]

Originally posted by Socod_badne:

 

Hatemongering from holy prelates?!?!?

 

I don't know about that but if you live in Gaal land and it is unlawful to utter accusations of apostasty, then you shouldn't accuse. That is my view, respect the laws of the nation you reside in or leave.

 

[/QB]

Hatemongering???

 

I wonder what you would of consider Umar ibn Al-Khattab (r.a.)

 

If I am not mistaken, there is a rule in Islam that says

 

'NO OBEDIANCE TO THE CREATURE,

IN DISOBEDIANCE TO ALLAH!'

 

Meaning that there is a limit to respecting the lawsss of the nation you reside in or leave.

 

If something that is Haram is made Halal and Vice Versa, then as a muslim, you are not obliged to ressspect that particular law.

 

You can flatout say-IT IS AGAINST MY RELIGION!

 

Fi Amanillah

[Khayr]

Salamz,

 

Allahubanee,

 

So do Mr. Fateh and Mr. Parvez compare to Bashir Goth for you.

 

and to the other nomads....

 

Is their a 'CHILL on 'regressive' muslims' ?

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Khayr:

You can flatout say-IT IS AGAINST MY RELIGION!

Of course you can, laws are meant to be broken. You can break any law you like. But when you do, you must be ready to face the consequences. You can't pretend you just fell from the sky and don't know anything. Are you Khayr? Will you go to prison for your believes?

 

I'm not disobeying any of Allah's commands since I'm against hatemongering. To the best of my knowledge nothing in Islam permits hatemongering. If you want me to get you transripts of what I mean by hatemongering, I can fetch up some for you. By denying that 'some' imams spew hateful words in our HOLY places, you are leaving me with no choice but to conclude you're being dishonest. Once again,I don't mean to give the impression this is wide spread or even a major problem, it isn't. However it a problem that exists (and a thorny one in the light of the recent rise of Islamophobia) nonetheless.