Islam and Democracy, which one is more Modern?

[Nur]

For many nomads, Democracy stands for modernity, development, technology, free thinking, happiness and freedom. While in contrast, Islam has the connotation of backwardness, old, confining, rigid and against free thinking etc.

 

Before we expound, lets ask ourselves, what is the defintion of Modernism and Backwardness?

 

Modernity is defined as : "the quality of being current or of the present; while backwardness means "Behind others in progress or development"

 

based on the above simple definitions let us verify if indeed the above perception of some Somali Nomads and their non Muslim role models is justified in context.

 

From a historical perspective, the above statements can be both true and false at the same time, its a mumbo jumbo statement, it needs to be "shuwayya shuwayya 3la shawaayah" ( cooked slowly in low heat).

 

First and foremost, Islam has one original release and many updated versions, each one specifically issued for a specific nation and their times, addressing a core problem, the final version being the "Modern" Isalm, issued circa 670 AD was revealed to be the last of all Divine Revelations addressing the combined past core issues such as social ( Regulation in Sexuality, prohibition of illicit sex and perversion) Business and Commerce (Prohibition of Usury), Law and Government ( Islamic Sharia).

 

Democracy on the other hand has a single non updated version formulated by the Athenian Greeks some 2500 years ago. Its an ailing system.

 

Well, saaxib, Islam is an Arabic word that means among several meanings, Surrender, submission, acceptance and reverence of a Sovereign Authority etc. Those who adhere to this Concept are called Muslims ( meaning : Those who are not actively or reactively challenging the authority of their creator)

 

While Athenian Democracy, a 5th century BC concept that ended in the 3rd century AD stood for peoples participation in the decision making process on issues that touch their lives aka politics.

 

Comparing the two concepts is like comparing Papaya to Mangoes, here are some of the differences:

 

Islam stands for the supremacy of THE ONE AND ONLY creator ( Allah) OF UNIVERSE AND ITS CONTENTS, who reserves the law making authority as well as the allegiance of His creatures.

 

The role of a Muslim in the institution of Islam is a SUBJECT, A SLAVE who has to fulfill his Masters commandments. So, the power is NOT FOR THE PEOPLE. The role of the slaves in this institution is consultation of best interpretation of the Divine Commandments, aka (Shuuraa)

 

Looking back in time, Islam was the only religion and faith, its earliest believers were a young newly weds couple, young handsome Adam and His beautiful wife Eva.

 

They were happy, they enjoyed the planet before the co2 pollution , the climate change catastrophe and deforestation, and everything they ate was organic, the planet was a big Island of fun, and there was only one simple law that allowed lots of freedoms, including but not limited to freedom of going nude, with one restriction: to stay away from eating The Forbidden Fruit. So , in that sense, sunbathers in the French Riviera would have considered their ancestors to be very Modern.

 

It follows that humans began populating the planet, each group migrating to different parts of the world, some going north and adapting to the cold temperatures, while some went south to enjoy the equatorial weather and its exotic foods, while a third group migrated east to the savannahs and tundras of Asia and its islands.

 

Once more these nations respectively received the divine code known as Islam, delivered to them by one of their wise men as recorded in Quraan ( Wa in min Qaryatin, illaa khalaa fiihaa Natheer).

 

Based on the above background, let us evaluate the said claims about Islam and Democracy.

 

Being current with the times can be good and bad, if you don't believe me ask your travel agent, why tourists "get away" from modern life to seek some peace in "Backward" places?.

 

 

Again, being current has many contexts:

 

1. Current in terms of worldview ( do we all see the same problems?.

2. Current in terms of trends ( Sodomy is currently accepted norm of lifestyle, but God (Old Testament, Quraan) destroyed two towns for the crime.

3. Current in terms of technological advancement. (Galileo, a scientist was hanged for not being current with the church's erroneous interpretation of the Universe)

4. Current in terms of socioeconomic theories ( Capitalism, Socialism, Communism)

 

Democracy, a philosophy which assigns sovereignty to mankind, so that the collective majority of votes make a decision to the minority, can be current if it adopts current trends, likewise, it can be backward if it reverts to an old concept.

 

So, Which concept is more current, more modern, Islam or Democracy?

 

A Self rejuvenating Divine Concept as old as the emergence of man, and as young as 600 AD, or a 2500 year old Man made concept?

 

 

The confusion can be cleared if we differentiate between Islam and Christianity, the religion of the western nations who champion Democracy.

 

A quick comparison between Islam and Christianity will show that:

 

1. Islam's holy book is pro scientific exploration, that is why during the Islamic golden age, Muslim Scholars enlightened Europe during its dark ages.

 

2. Islam encourages thinking, observation and inventions, the holy Quraan explicitly describes the Big Bang, the Expansion of the Universe, and its subsequent collapse, the Big Crunch.

 

3. Islam encourages continuous improvement of sociopolitical issues for the community.

 

4. Islam connects this life to the next, so success in this life can lead to success to the next.

 

 

To be contiuned........... .................... .................... .................... ..................

 

 

Nur

 

 

2008 eNuri Comparitive Concepts

The More Informed You Are, The Closer You Are To Islam.

[Naden]

Nur, how did you come to explain shura as a consultation of best interpretation of the Devine Commandments? Verse 42:38 references shura in relation to the matters common to people. The consultation in this context is not about the divine commandments alone but all their affairs. These affairs could span the common good affecting a group.

[N.O.R.F]

Good stuff Nur. Look forward to the next installment IA

[BOB]

Salam Aleikum W.W

 

 

Nice topic brother Nuur...Jazak-Allah.

 

 

Give me Islam over the western so-called Democracy anytime of the day...besides like late Malik Al-Shabbaaz said there's no democracy in the west only hypocrisy and if the blood sucking Zionists in the land of Palestine and their puppets in US and UK led by imbecile Bush are considered to be the champions of Democracy...by God I don't want anything to do with such ideology.

 

 

Peace, Love & Unity.

[Thierry.]

Mashallah Br Nur keep them coming

[stoit]

I dont like both democracy and capitalism. They colude with our base instincts and by driving us ever apart ever faster, they tear the very fabric of our societies asunder. It was only time before they could overcome the boombustic nature only to our detriment.

 

The bust was as much a blessing as the boom was.

 

Only my opinions. Probably not worth taking account of.

[Malika]

Brother Nur,

 

Dont you think,Islam and democracy have some principles in common,the respect for individual rights, liberty, equality, rejection of absolute power, limiting the role of state, and supremacy of the law?

 

I believe Islam already offered sound and effective direction to a national life, with constitutional and representative government are well rooted in Islamic political thinking, not only in Islam’s ethical imperatives of justice, equality, and the dignity of man, but also in well established political and legal tenets concerning the conduct of public affairs , such as shura [broad mutual consultation] ,bay’a [acceptance with commitment], wikala [delegation].and ridha al-awaam [popular consent].

 

It is just that after the influx of westerners in the lands of the Muslims they have been able to influence,changes in our juridistial systems hence the confusion...of what is democracy and how does it operate in an Islamic country without the secular influence..

 

thanks for the thought provocing thread..one had to go read and research to seek the knowledge...Jazakhallah kheyr.

[Nur]

Naden sis

 

Sorry for not having time on my hands these days, overwhelmed by work.

 

You write:

 

Nur, how did you come to explain shura as a consultation of best interpretation of the Devine Commandments? Verse 42:38 references shura in relation to the matters common to people. The consultation in this context is not about the divine commandments alone but all their worldly affairs also. These affairs could span the common good affecting a group that lives together in a geographical territory under their control.

 

Walaalo

 

Allah SWT says in Quraan : "Innal Amra kulluh lillah" Meaning, judgement of all affairs that matters to people rightfully belongs to Allah SWT.

 

Based on above, the Sharia is composed of Revelations ( Quran and Sunnah), Qiyaas and Ijmaac. Which gives ownership of the legislation to Allah SWT, and makes man an executor of the law even if its his his best attempt to interpret what Allah would have legislated in light of precedents (Qiyas) or consensus ( Ijmaac).

 

 

Malika sis

 

you write:

 

 

"Dont you think,Islam and democracy have some principles in common,the respect for individual rights, liberty, equality, rejection of absolute power, limiting the role of state, and supremacy of the law?"

 

 

Answer:

 

Democracy means Demo ( People) and Cracy(Rule). Other attributes are not Democracy but ideals that existed way before Democracy exisited.

 

You write:

 

 

"It is just that after the influx of westerners in the lands of the Muslims they have been able to influence,changes in our juridistial systems hence the confusion...of what is democracy and how does it operate in an Islamic country without the secular influence.."

 

Answer:

 

Demcracy can not operate properly in a genuine Islamic country, the application of Democracy deinies the Sovreignty of God ( Allah) over His dominion, Democracy is the epitome of human rejection of God's authority and Sovereignty over their collective affairs. The confusion you see is when the system is rigged, imagine a cat walking on duck's feet?

 

 

Nur

[Naden]

Nur,

 

Allah SWT says in Quraan : "Innal Amra kulluh lillah" Meaning, judgement of all affairs that matters to be people rightfully belongs to Allah SWT.

 

Based on above, the Sharia is composed of Revelations ( Quran and Sunnah), Qiyaas and Ijmaac. Which gives ownership of the legislation to Allah SWT, and makes man an executor of the law even if its his his best attempt to interpret what Allah would have legislated in light of precedents (Qiyas) or consensus ( Ijmaac).

The verse (3:154, I presume) in its entirety does not refer to the common shura as you had discussed in your essay or sharia as you are now alluding. My initial question was in regards to shura in matters relevant to a group, which can certainly include interpretation of religious text. How did you come to define shura as consultation of best interpretation of the Devine Commandments?

[Nur]

Naden Walaalo,

 

You write:

 

" The verse (3:154, I presume) in its entirety does not refer to the common shura as you had discussed in your essay or sharia as you are now alluding"

 

 

Answer:

 

The verse in Surah Al Imran discussed a spectacular example of the connection between the requirement of following a devine command by way of His prophet in a death and life situation, on one hand and the input some of the companion wanted to have in such a situation which is more dire than any other social situation that can arise in a community, which were the decisive events of the Battle of Badr, they asked " do we have any say in this matter? " they added, " If we had a say, we would not have been killed here" Allah decreed, " O Muhammad tell them, The matter in its entirety belongs to Allah"

 

Amr in Quraanic Arabic language has the following meanings:

 

1. Issue, matter, agenda to be discussed,

2. Event, accident

3. Command, order, instruction.

 

The context of above verse in Surah Aal Cimraan encompasses all three meanings which is rare, how you may ask.

 

a. The events were driven by Allah, it was not their choice to begin with, ( Li yaqdiya Allahu AMRAN, Kaana Mafcuulaa), AMRAN here means EVENT, as a small number of believers dared to confront a larger army of Quraish, Allah says that even if they have planned " Tawaacdtum", to meet at a certain place and time, they would have differed.

 

b. The Issue was not the mere interception of Qureish's caravan, but it was a Devine prelude to the establishment of the Muslim State, an issue some of the companions did not buy into nor understood it totally, as they tried to interfere with a Devine instruction.

 

c. The Command was to follow the instruction of the Prophet SAWS that was revealed to him by Allah.

 

 

Now, is the above relevant in the Shura?

 

Wel, sis, you asked me :

 

"how did you come to explain shura as a consultation of best interpretation of the Devine Commandments? Verse 42:38 references shura in relation to the matters common to people"

 

For which I referred to the above verse as an example that all matters and issues in Islam are not left to a Muslim, the Sharia which means the "WAY" in Arabic, includes the guidlines of what is permitted and what is prohibited. When we discuss what is permitted, we are in fact following the Sharia ( the way of Allah) even if Allah did not speak about it explicitly or its an open issue ( Mubaax).

 

Now, let us shed some light on the origins of the Sharia.

 

Sharia or "The Way" and "Shaaric" which means the endorser of ways and means, Allah, by way of his revelations and prophets, and books, has a purpose.

 

1. Protection of Faith, so any discussion on matters of faith is legitimate if its constructive of the faith , not destructive, shuraa can not be justified to undo the faith that gave it the legitimacy.

 

2. Protection of Life, so any discussion on matters of life and death must be based on Sharia which is based on the usool al sharia. Control System: Sanctity of Life, Capital Punishment for abusers.

 

3. Protection of Property, so any discussion on matters that will affect or lead to loss of property or its unjust transfer to others must be based on the Sharia.

Control System: Sanctity of Ownership, Prohibition of Ribaa Usury, " Do not consume wealth in your community unjustly" , Punishment for abusers

 

4. Protection of the Mind, any substance that will render the mind to compromise its full capacity is thus against the Sharia.

Control System: Sanctity of the Mind, Prohibition of Alcohol and drugs. Punishment

 

5. Protection of the procreation, which regualtes relationship of the sexes.

Control System: Sanctity of procreation, Prohibition of Sex outside of marriage. Punishment for abusers.

 

 

With the above background, let us visit your question:

 

"How did you come to define shura as consultation of best interpretation of the Devine Commandments? "

 

I have shown that:

 

1. All of human activities that needs regualtion fall in one of the above categories, directly or implied.

 

2. That, Allah is the Sovereign in His Dominion, thus the Only rightful owner of what " Matters" in His Dominion as per the Verse " He is the God at heavens and He is ( also) God on Earth". which demarcates the absolute reach of His absolute authority and rule.

 

3. That (Shuraa) is the right way to realize Allah's wishes ( Sharia, the Way) which has priority over human wishes and desires aka ( Ahwaa) when they conflict.

 

Nur

[Naden]

Nur,

 

Shura in the context of the quran is the closest approximation to a principle central to ‘democracy’, which is consulting people in affairs relevant to them. My initial question is your statement that reaching a consensus on interpretations of the religious text is what shura is known to be.

 

Consensus on the best interpretation of religious text/commandments as you have written in your initial essay and subsequent writings is NOT the definition of shura. That is too narrow of a scope. Such an interpretation is left to the religious class of society. It is a closed door process. That is the opposite of shura.

 

The verse says the following: And their matters are consulted amongst them. What the matters are and the shape in which the consultation occurs and who are consulted is kept open. Given this, how is people-rule different from consultation of people in matters of concern to them?

 

Consultation, consensus, and then agreement/disagreement would be a path in shura as it is in a democratic process. Both are methods, of course, and not goals, to reach ideals of protection of individual and civil rights.

 

The resources used in the consultation/consensus stages of the process depend on the group. In my opinion, the Quran and what is termed Sunnah are a resource, so are expert knowledge, accumulated experience, average Joe’s opinions. They may all go into the democratic process in the same manner as shura depending on the matter itself, from zoning by-laws to legal legislation.

 

If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that one's opinion, knowledge, experience should all be instructed by the Quran and Sunnah. Partly, perhaps, but not entirely, and certainly not in all matters.

 

The Sharica you brought up in a later post depends on 2 man-influenced processes: qiyas and igmaac . Both largely depend on expert opinions of learned religious men and neither is open to the 'common' man's opinion. Shura, by definition, would include them and the larger society as well.

[Nur]

Naden sis

 

You wrote:

 

"Consensus on the best interpretation of religious text/commandments as you have written in your initial essay and subsequent writings is NOT the definition of shura. That is too narrow of a scope. Such an interpretation is left to the religious class of society. It is a closed door process. That is the opposite of shura"

 

Answer:

 

Please read what I wrote once more critically:

 

 

"The role of a Muslim in the institution of Islam is a SUBJECT, A SLAVE who has to fulfil his Masters commandments. So in Islam, the power is NOT FOR THE PEOPLE. All Power is RESERVED FOR ALLAH ONLY, NOT for those competing to sharing power with him known as ANDAAD ( .......Innal Quwata lillahi Jamiican) The role of the slaves in this institution is consultation of best interpretation of the Devine Commandments, aka (Shuuraa)"

 

 

Sister:

 

Allah SWT says:

 

If you disagree on an issue (Shey-in) ( any issue), then (to solve) refer to Allah ( Quran) and His Messenger ( Prophet's teachings , Sunnah).

 

Hence Shuraa in Islam is the problem solving process in which we refer to the above guides for a solution for any matter.

 

Your perspective of discussing this topic is alien to Islam, you are separating issues to religious issues and public concern issues, while in Isalm, every aspect of A Muslims life is " Religious", while in the western worldview, there are two distinct aspects to a persons life, thus, the role of democracy in discussing issues common to people who have no shared religious values but have shared interest.

 

Infact, contrary to your assertion, my view is more broad and inclussive of all activities of a Muslim in Shuraa. Yours is the narrow interpretation of Shura, by confining Shura to only the high level scholars Fiqh issues.

 

Your difficulty in grasping the Islamic system of Shura as related to Democracy arises from your attempt to mold Islam in a western package, in Shuraa, regular Joe with no understanding or acceptance of supremacy of Sharia is not qualified to cast his opinion in Shuraa unlike Democracy which gives the right to cast vote to any citizen regardless of the judicial basis of their opinion. Because in Islam the Law ( Sharia) supersedes any Conusltation not in line with it, whereas in Democracy, the consultation supersedes any past Law.

 

In Islam, before we qualify for Shuraa on any issue or concern, we:

 

1. Unconditionally accept Allah's supremacy, his Sovreignty, his law ( Sharia) as the basis of all of our lives.

 

2. The Place of Quraan and Sunnah in the interpretation process,

 

3. Based on the above two, we begin to discuss ( Shuraa) any issue within those constraints.

 

Shuraa means consultation, sharia means the law or the way to live. So a Muslim is not free to have a consultative meeting that conflicts with the Sharia as Sharia is the broad ball park in which shuraa takes place.

 

Qiyaas and Ijmaac are again the fruit of Shuraa on clarification of applicability ambiguities in the Quran and Sunnah to a paticular situation.

 

 

Nur

[Naden]

Nur,

 

Forget about ‘Western’ democracy for now, walaal. These are simply names and what the spirit and practice of the name entail are much more telling. Anyone who says that the US electoral college is based on democratic principles is lying. My last neighbourhood zoning meeting, on the other hand, was based on sound democratic principles in both theory and practice.

 

In my view, it is not only the origin of a concept or a practice that invalidates it. The so-called kufaar of the prophet’s (csw) era wore the same clothes as the mu’mins, named their children Abdullah, and were generous with their neighbours.

 

Shuraa means consultation, sharia means the law or the way to live. So a Muslim is not free to have a consultative meeting that conflicts with the Sharia as Sharia is the broad ball park shuraa takes place.

Your conclusion does not follow your 2 premises. Sharia, by definition, is a heavily man-influenced set of legislation through the influence of qiyaas and igmaac.

 

Second, shura or consultation is a process and a sharia law/legislation is an outcome. Your comment that a muslim is not free to have a consultative meeting at odds with Sharia, though that very Sharia is being developed by other muslims, is very strange. Are we talking about different classes of muslims? First class muslims who are of a religious understanding, according to your statement, who can influence legislation in ALL aspects of life and a 2nd class muslim who is now bound by that very legislation, whether in agreement or not.

 

I do not disagree that the power is all for God and the matters all return to him. But who dispenses this power on our earth and who interprets matters that ought to return to him?

 

Let’s go back to your initial assertion. The use of ‘shura’ in the Quran is expansive and general. Verse 3:159 says: And consult them in the matter. Verse 42:38 also says: Their matters are consulted amongst them. You assertion that this consultaton is limited to interpretation narrows the scope of this consultative process as well as the participants.

 

Yours is the narrow interpretation of Shura, by confining Shura to only the high level scholars Fiqh issues.

It is not me who confined the interpretation but you. In your initial essay, you asserted that ' The role of the slaves in this institution is consultation of best interpretation of the Devine Commandments, aka (Shuuraa)' When was the last time that a math teacher or an electrician (and not a modern day ex-accountant and now TV daciya) were involved in a matter of interpretation or were involved in issuing a Fatwa?

 

Because in Islam the Law ( Sharia) supersedes any Conusltation not in line with it, whereas in Democracy, the consultation supersedes any past Law.

If we were to examine a Sharia legislation, any legislation, based on Qiyaas and/or Igmaac alone and a society wishes to expand on it, modify it, or scrap it altogether, wouldn't the consultation or shura and its results supersede the past legislation? Who is consulted and what shape the consultation takes would be left to the group.

 

 

Please read what I wrote once more citically: The role of a Muslim in the institution of Islam is a SUBJECT, A SLAVE who has to fulfil his Masters commandments. So, the power is NOT FOR THE PEOPLE.....

Okay, I read your statement once more and I was going to come back to it once we’ve discussed your shura definition. Let me ask you a question. A slave, as most people understand this word, means someone who has no opinions and in the end, NO choice in what he or she does.

 

The Quran in more than one instance says that a muslim has a choice to believe or not to believe, to follow or not to follow guidance, to do good or not do good, to love God or not. Is that the normal relationship between a slave and a master?

 

This is actually a very interesting, albeit difficult, discussion on the difference between Cabiid (slave) and Cibaad (worshipper) and their uses in the Quran. Perhaps we can engage in it in a separate thread once we are done with this one?

[Khayr]

Originally posted by Naden:

Okay, I read your statement once more and I was going to come back to it once we’ve discussed your shura definition. Let me ask you a question. A slave, as most people understand this word, means someone who has no opinions and in the end, NO choice in what he or she does.

 

The Quran in more than one instance says that a muslim has a choice[/n] to believe or not to believe, to follow or not to follow guidance, to do good or not do good, to love God or not. Is that the normal relationship between a slave and a master?

 

 

 

Nadine,

 

What do you value in the 'democratic' model that you don't think is valued in other models? What appeals to you?

[Miriam1]

been following the discussion very interesting !