Wooohooo! Lets slaughter a goat.

^^ Calm down saaxib you're chasing your own tail there by trying to take the moral high ground, son of dervish

What a geek! You want all the way to convict land and all you managed to take pictures of are buildings? Are they really that boring, Val? Or, ahem, are you?

Have you noticed that Serenity, Val, Sheh and many other girls seem to be boycotting the forum. It all started the minute AUB disappeared.

Originally posted by Castro: ^^^^ There are five, and only five, possible positions anyone can hold on this occupation: 1) Reject it and pick up arms against it. 2) Reject it and either speak up against it or keep the rejection in their heart. 3) Support it and speak up in favor or keep the support in their heart 4) Support it and actively fight alongside it 5) Be indifferent. Now, I've no idea how you, or anyone else, could come up with this 'two thirds' figure but I will tell you this, the bulk of Somalis fall in category 2). A small minority is in category 1) and an even smaller number is in categories 4) and 5). That's how I see it. That many Somalis are incapable of doing something about the occupation does not in any way mean they support it. Ask any occupied peoples and they'll tell you they're against their occupation except, of course, those who stand to gain from the occupation. So, now that you made your point, what evidence will you bring forth in its support? How about using your own words? And the point you make on the resistance being strictly in Xamar or the south, well that is a well made point. Except it misses the larger point namely Puntland and Somaliland and how comfortable they are in Ethiopian pockets. The "South" is the last remaining land with "free" Somalis. People support their administrations, saaxib. Again, here, I prefer to toe the official line and assume that two thirds of Somalis are for the occupation. Still, before we digress into that and argue over a whole new topic, remember the point I’m making. This is all about disproving Mr ME’s unity mumbo-jumbo. Ayub above is a perfect example of that. He cares for the plight of his fellow Somalis in the south but not enough to unite with them. It’s a fact. No need to clutch at straws there. Seek a new concept and rallying cry.

Geel jire and Castro, Methinks you choose to ignore the point I made! The point, again, is that two thirds of Somalis don't mind the 'occupation'. This, as I said and before you decided to change the subject, does not support Mr ME's argument for UNITY. Try to keep up, boys.

Xiin, You know though that should her qabiil (or yours for that matter) commit an injustice neither she nor you would realise that it were an injustice to start with. The whole point of being a qabiilist is that, in one's eyes one's qabiil could never do wrong. Khalaf, she's a big girl, stop following her around and defending her, saaxib. You're spoiling whatever good arguments she's coming with by this bodyguard act of yours It's a shame she's not from my qabiil or I would have given her to you just like I did earlier with the hambo lovers.

^^^ Sounds like your clan let you down bad

I suppose I should have worked on my words there. Still, I see nothing wrong with the whole point I'm making.

^^^ This is your take on the matter. I choose to go with the official announcements. Besides, this is neither here nor there. The TFG admits to inviting the Ethiopians. That’s the point I am making.

^^^ Say hello to my little friend

^^

^^^ Stop giggling at him, woman. He just rejected you! This has never happened to us before and I'll have to consult our clan elders on what steps to take to teach this guy a lesson. lol@North. You need caller ID.

^^ If I get Peru I'll be waving the blue one all the way to Lima

^^^ Inadeer ana ku bixiyaay what clan are you sending after me

^^^ When her fifth cousin removed drove that pickup into a crowd of people in downtown Boosaso and had to pay millions in 'blood money' it was his (her) clan that coughed up all that money. Earlier Northerner was talking about the 18th of May celebrations and mentioned that they’re collecting money to build a hospital in one of the Somaliland cities. I am quite happy to wager that the vast majority of people attending that event shall not be mere Somalilanders but people from that named city (and in turn the clans that live in that city). So, you see, clans do build schools and hospitals, etc. Edit: Mrs **. You said 'we need help' and I asked you if it were the help of our clans. Never mind.

Is Peru gone?

^^ From our qabiil you mean?

Me, What world do you live in, saaxib? Who is going to fight the Ethiopians with you? Puntland? The many other parts of Somalia that support this Ethiopian 'assistance'? I hoped that you would get the hint in my words above but it looks like I'll have to go into a longer and more detailed explanation (or rather stating of the obvious). The idea that Ethiopia has come to Somalia of its own free will and only for its own interests is a myth spread by those opposing that country. There are many reasons why Ethiopia came into Somalia; chief amongst them is the fact that it was INVITED by the TFG. One cannot escape this fact, saaxib. This, if anything, tells you that there are massive numbers of Somalis who are comfortable with this Ethiopian 'assistance'. In fact, and you are free to correct me if I'm wrong, in all the news reports we've heard so far, the only (real) opposition to the Ethiopian invasion came (and is coming) from people in the capital! Somalia is not just its capital city, saaxib. So, what are the rest of the Somalis doing and why are they not protesting against this 'occupation'? It's either that they support such actions or that they're simply (and very silently) supporting the resistance. In both cases, I'm sure you'll agree, their behaviour does not encourage and advance any ideas or dreams of unity. Unity, as a concept is a great aim to have and something that we all should aspire to. But today it is nothing but a distraction and an idle dream. Somalia is nothing but a broken glass (as a former UN envoy to the country once said) yet here you are trying to convince us all that we can still drink from that glass! Is it not time you exhaled and smelt the gunpowder, saaxib? Finally, lest you feel victimised and think I'm singling you out and leaving Kashafa's argument as the winning one, don't despair saaxib. His position is actually as questionable as yours. He argues against Somali unity and extols the beauty of Islamic unity instead. He brushes aside nationalism and provides examples of Egypt, Syria and Yemen trying the Arab nationalism tricks and failing! However, in that story (about those three countries) I reckon that he pressed the fast-forward button and only showed us the 'kissing scene' to prove that the story is a bad one to simulate. Why don't we rewind a little and go way back to the days of the Ottomans and the Arab revolt against that Khilafa? Islam ruled then (at least by name if not by deed). Surely the Arabs, as Muslims, should not have had anything to complain about! The framework was in place and they should have stuck with the Khilafa instead of allowing disunity and discord to fester in their midst! Were they less Muslim than the Ottomans? Did the Sheriff of Mecca follow a different faith? Of course not. He just didn't want a pesky Turk ruling him and telling him what to do (in addition to many other grievances he had). Were he and the Ottomans less knowledgeable about their faith than our Sheikh Aways, Sheikh Indhacadhe and others? I strongly doubt it! What would you say was the reason for this then? For me, and at a guess, I'd say irreconcilable differences. And what has kept the Somalis fighting amongst themselves? Irreconcilable differences per chance? Nationalists and Islamists are two sides of the same coin. Heads and tales! But for that coin to have a value and be considered legal tender it has to be approved by the Somali clannish bank (where all our mighty reserves are to be found). Anything less and we're really talking monopoly money here. You want me to take your seriously, show me guarantees that your clan will not usurp all the powerful positions and subjugate my clan. If Kashafa wants us to take him seriously he needs to bring forward some Mullahs who are part of this struggle that belong to other prominent clans rather than one single one. I realise that these are ugly demands but they're borne out of an ugly situation. Time to get real and stop forever blowing bubbles.

^^ Why can't you provide a source though?

Stop spreading evil rumours, North. I'm hoping Mr Yusuf gives me an ambassadorship to Peru. ps I only went to the 18th May thing in 2004 (When they were collecting money to build that hospital in Burco). I have not been since and doubt if I will. It's full of teenagers and troublemakers.

Now this is really my kind of topic. Bring it all out I say.

Heh. I thought I’ve made my position clear long ago. I’m indeed a fence sitter. However, I do not profess to be your typical harmless, meek kind of fence sitter. When push comes to shove I unashamedly admit that I’m a glory-hunter. My two flags remain under my bed and I await to see who emerges victorious from this national tussle. Of course, in times of peace I can afford to take this position and bide my time. For me, and without that strong emotional links to either cause it would be foolish to choose one side over the other (Unity or Somaliland). The reasons for the existence of Somaliland have never been convincing enough for me to bring out that entity’s flag from under my bed. Should they get the recognition, I’ll be the first to wave that flag. It is really is as simple as that. On the other hand, the unity of Somalia, in my humble opinion, is also a pipe dream. However, opinions can be wrong and should Mr Yusuf (or anyone else for that matter) manage to unite that nation and reconcile all sides, then my blue flag will also come out from under my bed faster than an Ethiopian tank descending on Mogadishu! Still, this is not about MY position on this affair. This is about simple logic. If you BELIEVE in Somaliland and consider it to be a sovereign, independent nation then you really should not bother engaging on arguments justifying the existence of that nation. To do so is to give such arguments substance and confirm that there is room for negotiation. By all means, defend your nation, argue over border disputes and talk about differences with Somalia. But once you go down the road of justifying the existence of Somaliland, you prove that you actually don’t understand the meaning of an independent nation. Furthermore, the UNITY argument at this particular point in time is absurd and duplicitous. The hatred and mistrust in Somalia runs deeper than one clan against another. It goes all the way down to sub-sub-sub clan levels. Alliances and united fronts are only formed when such clans (and sub clans) perceive a common threat and are forced to work together (Somaliland is a case in point). To ignore all of that and reduce the argument to the superficial level of Somalnimo and Islamnimo alone is both ignorant and dishonest. Finally, I’d just like to agree with Xiin and concede that at a time of war my loyalty will indeed be on the side of Somaliland. Alas, I doubt that such straightforward logic will be easy to understand for many people on here.

Originally posted by Baruud: quote:Originally posted by Xanthus: Ngong^^^^Hmmm interesting way of looking at things heck no. He presented Somaliland as '***** yar' darn it. NG, couldnt' you find a better example. Ilahow ha nacadaabin. The point is (despite what Castro says) that it really does not matter. I can understand why Xiin, Castro and even myself would talk about this topic but, why are you taking part? You already think Somaliland is an independent nation! Must you always try to justify it then?

You're asking me what would I call something that uses the old enemy to beat his brother's head! That's changing the subject. We're not talking about what I or you would call him today.