Originally posted by Khayr: What is funny is these people are more than willing to "Judge" traditional muslims and conservative muslim values but won't allow for any conservatively minded judgements to be made by others. Thats a contradiction and what it ends up suggesting is that you can't debate with these people because it is Sentiment that overrides their responses. This often turns the debate into something profane and self-serving like a playground name calling match. Horta Ramadan Kareem. Hope that your fast is accepted and sins reduced. Now that the pleasantries are out of the way, here comes the bile. Are you capable in walking in a straight line, saaxib? I mean going from point A to point B without needing to pass by points X, Y or Z! Ok. Follow this one slowly and don't lose your way. The discussion was about a program that WAS not aired YET. It was all speculation at the time (well, any time before last night). I don't much rate your common sense but I'd still wager that even you would (when things are explained to you calmly and with pictures if need be) refuse to judge in haste! I have now watched the program and could give you my impression of it if you like. Before watching it however there was no way that I would condemn, disparage or judge these women. All I did, if you go and read back was to hope that the show will reflect Muslim women in a good light. On your accusation that "these people are more than willing to judge traditional Muslims", I say bah and utter humbug, saxib! It is not traditional Muslims that we judge; it is YOU (whatever you may call yourself). We are able to make such a judgment as a result of YOUR words on this forum and not a news report purporting to describe what you may or may not have said. You choose to openly assume the moral high ground. But I don't trust you no matter how many verses from the quran you post or how many ahadeeth you dissect. I don't trust you because I frankly don't like your attitude (or Khalaf's or Red Sea's). It's rude, sanctimonious, confrontational and full of baseless assumptions. Granted, I'm even ruder, much more mischievous and deliberately confrontational. However, it's not I that affects the devout persona! We've done this before in the past, saaxib. You sort out your delivery (or just ditch the online cimaamad) and I'll stop judging traditional, conservative Muslims (i.e. YOU). ps The program was very light-hearted and didn't reveal many things. It showed four very different Muslim women. Some I warmed to and some I didn't.

^^ ويحك يا رجل, ما هذا الهراء

^^ A weak parody. Still, it seems to have got through your defences (I'm assuming Dahia is pulling your legs, you two).

^^ Everyone here has been quoting the Quran. I'll just be contrary for the sake of it and quote you a bit of the bible. Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone Originally posted by Naden: Lily and Ghanima, my sincere apologies ladies, that was a st*upid and unnecessary insulting remark. It still stands that Muslims always fall back on a severely insignificant piece of cloth. We flock to any spot in the world to be away from moral and ethical decline in our backyards. Corruption, bribery, non-existent human rights, and so on. There are far richer and deeper issues that need debate than this safe, superficial, symbol of Islam. You're right. It is a simple piece of cloth. However it is in no way insignificant. In fact, it is significant enough to force the French government to ban it in schools. And, more recently, it was significant enough to almost topple the Turkish government. In many parts of the world (and even sadly many sections of the Muslim community) it is viewed as a symbol of the oppression of women! It is a talking point and a serious one at that. It's what the pseudo-mullahs insist upon most (watch them frothing at the mouth above) and the seemingly freethinking unbelievers reject best. Depending on your chosen side of the fence, it can be the sign of a pious, virtues and deeply religious woman, or an independent, liberated and free from the shackles of faith and tradition woman! Both of course are extreme stereotypes but where would we be without those, eh!

^^ I did. I actually read it twice (I'm pedantic like that). I know how much you want to believe it and hope that things work out. But you and Bilaal both have BRAINS. Use them and control your passions. Had you read the piece you would have noticed how lightly he dismissed all the obstacles in their way and decided that qabiil is no more! In fact, he had the temerity to assert that the Somali people are tired of qabiil and will not accept a politician seeking support on that policy! The realist, Kashfa, would rejoice at the idea of that meeting in Asmara but not hold his breath for a favourable outcome. It's about time that the Courts got their act together and are formulating a political plan to go with their suicidal fighting. If you've been paying attention you would recall that I was banging on about this way back in January. I would be a complete hypocrite to dismiss it today. However, tremendous optimism like the one displayed by the brother above is irrational and almost verges on propaganda. When I read such rubbish (with all due respect of course) I could but only point out how nonsensical it all sounds. Ps Loath though you maybe to accept advice from me but I shall give it nonetheless. Yours is the honourable fight and position. Don’t soil it by your wistful gesticulations of anger and defiance. Leave the propaganda to the turncoats, saaxib.

Yet another of those stuff and nonsense threads. Still, one shouldn't pour cold water on the hopes of others. As you were..

^^^ Make sure you're sitting down as you read this Dutch politician launches committee for ex-Muslims AFP September 11, 2007 THE HAGUE -- A controversial Dutch politician, Ehsan Jami, Tuesday launched a committee for ex-Muslims to support those who have renounced the Islamic faith, following the example of similar associations in Germany and Britain. "We are breaking the taboo that comes with renouncing Islam, but also taking a stand for reason, universal rights and values, and secularism," said a declaration signed by Jami, Mina Ahadi of the German association of ex-Muslims, and their British counterpart Maryam Namazie, who are all of Iranian origin. Jami, a 22-year-old local Labor politician, has been front-page news in the Netherlands since August, after he was attacked in the street. He is known for his outspoken stance against Islam. In interviews he called the Prophet Mohammed "criminal," and compared him to Osama Bin Laden. The official launch of his committee for ex-Muslims September 11 has sparked criticism. According to Jami's advisors, this day was chosen to associate the initiative against intolerance. However, critics argue that picking this date serves only to link Islam to terrorism. "We will wage a fight, we will talk with the people in mosques, representatives of Dutch Muslim organizations, and Dutch people," Jami told a packed press conference called to mark the signing of the declaration. The German committee called "Wir haben abgeschworen" (We have renounced) has some 400 members, including secular Germans who were not originally Muslims, said Ahadi. The British council of ex-Muslims has some 70 members. For the moment, Jami's committee is extremely small, with only two members, "but we have received hundreds of support e-mails, and that's what counts. We're more of a movement," Jami said. Over 70 people, including far-right MP Geert Wilders, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, another outspoken Islam critic, who left the Netherlands for the United States, last year, have signed a declaration of support for the committee. Source This is the sort of news you feel happy with in the media. It goes to reinforce your own sterotype, doesn't it?

^^ I like the roundabout way you quoted me there, Khayr. Now. I'm not sure if you're being obtuse here or just letting your anger run with you. Never mind, none of it matters. The comparison here was made by you and not me (or the program, as far as I'm aware)! You're projecting your own fears and worries, saaxib. Nobody is demonising homemakers or those wanting to go to madrassahs! However, many in the Western media portray Muslim women as oppressed, backwards and uneducated. All of course are true. But that's not all that a Muslim woman is and this program (from what I've read above) aims to show the other side. I don't see what your objection here is. It's laughable that you should talk about rhetorical questions then come up with one of your own. What do you mean why the interest in Muslim women? Have you not noticed that, these days, there is an interest in EVERYTHING Muslim?

^^ But isn't that the truth in most cases. Aren't you and I normal people (Zenobia said I was arrogant so I'm playing it down a little)? Is it really that wrong to show others that our women are intelligent, independent and Muslim, all at the same time? There are many people with awful agendas talking for Islam in the UK today. I needn't point them out because I've already done that in countless threads in the past. When I see that the BBC is profiling normal, everyday Muslims (that could be my sister, wife, cousin or friend) I'm fully in support of such programs. It's much better than giving the spotlight to an Abu Hamza or a Salman Rushdie to be honest.

^^^ Didn't mean to come across as arrogant in this instance, ayeeyo. Still, I don't think watching the show will make much difference to your argument. After all, it's the titles you seemed to be against and not the women themselves! Ps Lest you mistake the myopic mullah comment to apply to all mullahs, I'm only talking about myopic mullahs only. I think the media refers to them as fundamentalists! Myopic is much kinder, wouldn't you say? Resistance, Is that your idea of a debate? You're being unnecessarily obstinate my friend. Rather than a tiresome throwaway comment, care to stand up for your argument and furnish it with some logical substance? ps If you're going to go into a long explanation only to end up with the tiresome old idea of a Jewish conspiracy then I'd rather you just ignore me and not bother. Anything else, of course, will be gratefully received.

Much ado about nothing! At most it's but a footnote in world politics.

Originally posted by Zenobia: ^I agree, the British media has started off this campaign of categorise Muslims into good (modern - not too different) and Traditional (you've got to watch them!). I'm not sure if the term is used by the sisters in question, we'll have to watch and see. The British media have good reason to do so. And no it's not because of some conspiracy theory. After all, I'm sure you'll admit that there are groups of Muslims who want to blow up the British Isles and everyone in them. There are some Muslims who want to run the whole world under a backwards Taliban style rule. What would you call such Muslims? Confused? Stray? Lost? Or even honourable? Whatever you call them you'll still have to apply some sort of distinctive label on them, hence the moderate, extreme, fundamentalist or modern labels that the British media applies here. To dismiss such labels as some sort of campaign to belittle or categorise Muslims is duplicitous, ayeeyo. Don't let the myopic mullahs lead you down a blind alley. I have not watched the program but if it shows Muslim women to be good, independent, intelligent and faithful to their religion I would honestly be the first to champion the cause of Modern Moderate Muslim Women.

Originally posted by Skipper: Ngonge am still geting used to this place and what is your role at SOL? Do you keep the register of who is present and who is not since you said that Zafir and Johhny are negleting this place? I keep track of the experts in each field, saaxib. When there are girl fights it’s usually over the big kahuna and not xawash. Every group on here have their style and place by the way. Zafir and Johnny are the self-declared studs. Rudy the leader of the newly formed FFM. There a few religious folks. A few political (usually one issue) campaigners and many silent lurkers. I’m not sure where to place you in all of this. I, of course, stand alone in my know-it-all smugness. :cool:

Originally posted by Andromeda: ^Are you hinting for a medal or something? Heh. If I were after medals I'm sure I could think of one or two other activities that my skills are more suited to. Changing nappies is a silly topic to be honest. It is one that nature forces you to deal with, even if you didn't want to. I mean with all these young men (and women) that turn their noses up at changing nappies (mark the expression please), when was the last time you heard any of them brag about being able to withstand the worst smells in the world? Once the room starts to stink that nappy has to be changed by the nearest person around. No ifs and no buts (well other than the baby's of course).

^^^ I go where rudy goes, ayaayo umu zakaria, It was all done in jest walaal. Don't take it to heart. ps Don't tell rudy but I've changed plenty of nappies in my time. Most of them were not even my children! (no joke there by the way).

Ok. I hoped someone else would say this and god only knows how I walked around with a big smile on my face all day. But someone has to say it, someone must. Zafir and Johnny are neglecting this place if I'm truly honest. Oh well, here goes: Ladies falling out over a bit of Xawash! Priceless

Now that's what I call a social interaction

^^^ Can just imagine how you felt as you read that No worries though. I expected all the reactions below:

^^ No such thing as a fog of love? You wait and see, wait and see. Val, I heard a rumour (spread by you if I may add) that you're in love! I chose to ignore your subsequent retraction.

Xawash is in fact an Arabic word. It means followers or family. It was usually used to refer to the entourage that follows kings or leaders (these would include family in addition to employees, friends and associates). The use of the word in that context implies that the centre of attention was the king/leader himself. The rest were mere dressing to add to his greatness. Isn't that exactly what spices do to food (or drink)? You have a cup of TEA with mint, a leg of CHICKEN with spices, etc. I have no idea what crazy Somali meanings you attribute to the word (though I'm sure some smart person will soon tell us) but its original meaning is what I outlined above. Having said that, no food or drink is complete without a sprinkling of xawash. A bit like my contributions on various threads I suppose.

^^^ Did you not read her reply in the other thread? The girl is blind with the fog of love. I advice a heavy course of antibiotics.

Boys, boys, you shouldn’t be reading such MANipulative threads. Without knowing it, you’ll find yourself getting sucked in and falling for these illogical womanly demands. Where will that leave you, eh? Here is my advice to you, borne out of years of marital experience (not to mention other gems gleaned from countless meditative discussions in various coffee shops): Whenever you hear the seagull-like cries of a wife rebuking you for not telling her that you love her often enough, do what my friend Ali did! What did he do? I hear you ask Well, let me start at the beginning; This Ali is a bright and intelligent chap. He’s neither highly educated nor fervently religious. However, one look at his dazzling eyes leaves nobody that meets him doubtful of the man’s towering sophistication! Ali is married to a woman of the female type, I forget the name she goes by but rest assured that the omission of her name has no effect on the story. Still, some people like to identify with the characters in stories, so lets just call her Canab! In fact, allow me to digress and give free rein to my gushing stream of consciousness for a bit. I’m thinking of the symmetry, evenness and beautiful balance that go with the names Canab and Ali! I could just imagine their wedding night, as they sat on a couple of single sofa chairs that were transported from someone’s living room. Can just see the crowd dancing around them, music being played and a couple of helium balloons swaying behind them. Can you see it with me? See the two muttons-dressed-as-lamb standing at the back of the hall and dressed in matching diracs? Hush! I hear them whisper. Zoom in, cameraman. What are they saying? What are they saying? Aaah! I hear it now; they’re talking about those helium balloons. It’s quite a moving scene to witness their heavily made faces break into a smile (not to mention cracks appearing in all that caked makeup). Ha! They agree with me. They just said: Canab and Cali, perfect symmetry! Right, back. Much obliged for your generous indulgence. I was telling a story, was I not? Ah yes, it was Ali’s story and how he dealt with his wife’s relentless demands for expressions of his love. Of course Ali assured me that he loves his wife. But he argued that reminding her of that love was a needless and ridiculous burden. ‘I married a grown up woman, not a child’ he painfully protested before I calmed him down by gently tossing a full and fresh orbito on his rapidly fading daily dose. He went on to explain how he tamed that wild wife of his. I can see that you’re getting impatient here and, frankly, I’m not even sure if anyone has managed to read this far! Still, I shall continue and tell you what Ali did. It is often said that the best form of defence is attack. Ali tells me that he looked at the situation from all angels and wanted to formulate a solution that will fit the circumstances like a diamond necklace on a busty girl’s neckline (at this point I tried to tell him that this image was slightly out of kilter; on account of the fact that most people would not see the necklace and only notice the bust. But he ignored me and carried on talking). What he said he did, was to attack enthusiastically and incessantly. When he woke up in the morning, he would shake his wife awake and tell her that he loves her. When he left the room to go wash his face, brush his teeth and relieve himself; he told her that he won’t be long and that he loved her. As he got dressed, he told her that he loved her! He said that at first she looked suspicious and whined about him mocking her! But after he pulled her up, placed the palms of his hands on her shoulders, looked deep into her eyes and told her that he loves her, all her suspiciousness evaporated and she was a woman walking on air. Ali said that this last incident and his wife’s elation about being told that he loved her would have allowed him (if he wanted to) not to bother about uttering any expressions of love for at least a fortnight! But he was a man on a mission and victory was within sight. What he did, is when he got to work he phoned her and told her that he loved her. During his lunch break, as he munched on two bricks with cheese in the middle, he phoned her and said that he loved her. He carried on with this charade for two more days. Then on the third day and as he got back home from work and shouted the words: ‘darling, I’m home! I love YOU!’ he noticed that his mother-in-law was sat in the living room. This (he says) was an unexpected bonus! He immediately started welcoming the M. in L. singing out words such as ‘ welcome the great woman that gave birth to the love of my life’, ‘our house is blessed, my eyes are moistening up at the thought that: here sits the source of my beautiful river of a wife’. He says that the M. in L. was startled and (like her daughter) she thought that he was mocking her. But that the daughter quickly set her mother’s heart at rest and explained the position to her. The mother sighed deeply and (he believes) allowed a tear to sadly trickle out. Ali could have stopped right there and then. He now had a very powerful ally that witnessed him expressing his love for Canab. He needn’t do anything for months on end. But Ali is not the type of man to leave a job unfinished! The love expressions continued. They were accompanied by love letters, cards and gifts of all sizes! Canab was overwhelmed by it all but shrewd Ali still pressed on. He started waking her up in the middle of the night and telling her that he dreamt of her and had to tell her that he loved her. He started taking surprise days off from work and potter about the house waiting for her to walk past just so he could tell her he loves her. As you probably gathered from the last few sentences, Canab was starting to get tired of this taxing love. Though she enjoyed hearing her husband telling her that he loved her, she just wished that he’d cut down on the juvenile and adolescent parts. Ali says that she tried to explain this to him and that he sobbingly flickered his eyes at her and countered with the words ‘but I love you’! What’s typical of women is that when one is in trouble or has a marital problem she would hurriedly go to her friends and seek advice. That’s exactly what Canab did, according to Ali. He tells me with an ecstatic chuckle that Canab moaned to her friends about being over-loved, over-pampered and over-spoilt. He almost chokes on his toothpick as he recounts how the friends were oohing and aahing one minute and blowing raspberries the next! I told him that I understood the reason for the first part but didn’t understand the reason for the derision! He laughed some more as he accepted the lit cigarette from me and said ‘you don’t understand women, do you? They did that because they didn’t believe any woman could complain about being over-loved! They thought Canab was showing off! It seems that, he carried on telling her he loves her for one more week before she sat him down one day and pleaded with him to stop. He says he argued with her and said he was confused with her changing feelings. But that when he saw the steely determination in her eyes he thought it best not to ruin his marriage by these excessive expressions of love. He vacantly smiled as he told me that it’s been three months since he last told her he loves her. He describes the occasion and the scene, which incidentally turns out to be an exact carbon copy of the previous time when his M. in L. was visiting! He says that on this occasion he accidentally (and quite involuntarily) told his wife that he loves her but that she smiled back at him with dancing eyes and asked him to stop mocking her! Of course, the M. in L. was perplexed (seeing that she was a witness the last time) and couldn’t help asking her daughter what nonsense she was talking. Canab, Ali says, told her mother that too much love is not healthy for a relationship and that she already knows how much Ali loves her without him needing to tell her! He didn’t report the M. in L’s reaction this time. This is how Ali told his story with Canab. Of course it’s possible that he exaggerated a little, he was chewing at the time after all. Regardless, I’m sure you’ll all agree that the tale of Canab and Ali has a perfect symmetry. Abdi on the other hand.....

^^ I was busy working and replying to another thread. Actually, I didn't reply yet. Hmmm! I'll make it a new thread (too long a reply to put in an already long thread). Morning by the way.

Originally posted by rudy: ^lol...Free Faarah Movement! about time. waxaan ka cabasaan inaye xabashi noo soo kaxeestan! Top right hand corner

Originally posted by Khalaf: quote:Originally posted by NGONGE: quote: Originally posted by Jimcaale: Faahiyoow, wait until Oodweyne comes with 4 page essay and Somaliland and UK highlighted sixteen times. Credit where credit is due, saaxib. He puts his heart and soul into those posts and one can only sit back and admire the dedication, if not always the message. Hmm, admire kulaha. He is the only one on SOL that i have yet to understand anything he is saying or writes to this day, other then when he is calling people wretched and little piglets, i undertstand that clear. He threatened to bury nomad me alive, has used very hateful messages, the dude needs help jalle. I take your point that his words are at times difficult to comprehend. But were mine? Read it again. :mad: