ailamos;749680 wrote: Norf, please don't generalize. When you say that "Secular societies today are in free fall with no morals/values left. Kids are disrespectful, governments unilaterally go to war, high crime etc etc." it not only is uninformed, but bordering on ignorance. No offense, walaal. The only bit I agree with in that blanketed sentence is the "governments unilaterally go to war" , but there are still many exceptions because secular societies are not confined to the US and certain Western European countries. As to the death penalty, I'm not getting into that because that's a whole different can of worms That is what we are debating about, and apparently there are arguments for both sides. I believe Muslims can live in a secular system as well as they can in a Shari'ah system, but the opposite is not true. I'm generalising? Me? 12 pages in and, after a skim through the pages, I don't see anything but generalisations (including from yourself). Let me explain. For me, secular societies mean Europe and North America (is Mexico secular? ). Popular western culture is dominated by the US. Personally, I grew up in the UK and so base my opinions of secular societies on those two nations (rightly or wrongly). In addition, I was born in the Middle East and live there today. Purely from observations, I have deduced the following: 1. The level of crime is much higher in western secular societies than in ME countries with a form of Shariah Law (why is that?). 2. Family values have been eroded in western secular societies but remain firm among ME societies (why is that?) I’m keeping it to two points as I believe these will be very important to any future Somali state. What I’m trying to do here is get you to be more specific. Considering the above (which you’re free to contest), what is the attraction of a secular state? I believe Muslims can live in a secular system as well as they can in a Shari'ah system, but the opposite is not true. . Do explain.

Che -Guevara;749772 wrote: Norf.....medical screening? you seem to be prejudice. Somalis spread diseases as much as the next poor Oromo peasant. This was ill-advised. True. But those entering and residing in the country whether its Somaliland or Somalia, should be screened. The Somalis should be dealt with through the clinics/hospitals.

^Somalis are not being deported. Its a double edged sword. You can't please all the people all the time. I'm actually surprised they've gone ahead with it in some sort of organised way. Not sure deportation is the way. They should have been given a chance to obtain documents and go through some sort of medical screening. Kudos however.

LoooooL Thanks for the laughs

^everyone knows Hirsi (whether they have met him or not). Besides, he can't let any Tom, Dick and Harry meet the president

^better late than never

Ilaahay ha u naxaristo. How did they get through? Thought Mug was secure??

^A&T thought he was part of 'making a difference'. Reality has caught up with him. A&T, naga daa the drama. You knew this was the case for eons saxib.

^that’s all good and dandy but surely it would be better to seek answers as well. Sultan, what you mentioned there is something many question (especially those brought up in liberal societies). Without being an expert it is quite clear those punishments act as deterrents. But do they work? Crime in western countries compared to crime in Muslim countries (even with little data from the latter) suggests it does. So what now? Will you change and no longer see it as too harsher punishment for the criminal but rather see it as a crime being prevented (due to those punishments acting as deterrents)?

ailamos;749397 wrote: That's a good point, and to answer your question, yes! It is only secular societies that allow people to "live and let live". They allow people to do what they want in their lives without fear of punishment. If there is a Shari'ah system in existence today that allows the individual to be free to express and live as they wish, then I would be happy to be proven wrong. But its not that simple is it? In both systems, people are free to live as they wish within the laws of the land. You can't kill. Murder is punishable in both systems. One adopts the death sentence (if the victim’s family so wishes) and the other doesn't (and they walk free soon afterwards) for example. Secular societies today are in free fall with no morals/values left. Kids are disrespectful, governments unilaterally go to war, high crime etc etc. So what is so good about secularism that the country with the highest percentage of Muslims in the world should adopt it as it's legislative structure?

What an interesting programme. Negotiating in grocery stores? Doubt it. Ignorance in America heh

Travelling to and from work taking more than an hour each way is just too much. The problem is lack of planning (it being an old city). Congestion charge, angry people, depressed people. No thanks. Sheffield is small, picturesque with good transport links. Same with Notts and Manchester. Haven't been to Leicester. Liverpool is the worst of the lot though

the Zaad thing is brilliant. Cashless society indeed.

nuune;749350 wrote: London is not in my list of places to even spend more than 2 days, just was there one day there the other day, I truly hate it to the fullest, that day I stayed there was chaotic, no tube in most places(most lines were not functioning), nothing, you can't drive as roads are all jammed, buses were full, they travel like diidiin, the place is hell without that tube, can't imagine how people depend on that, waaba guumeeysi iska cad, shiidh fooqal shiidh, ufff Problem is reer London and the tourists like Garowe Gal don't know any better. London is tough to live and work in.

^You only went to London I take it?

Britain has worst quality of life in Europe, study says British people have the worst quality of life in Europe, according to a report which highlights the long hours, bad weather, low life expectancy and high price of many consumer goods. By Harry Wallop, Consumer Affairs Editor 7:00AM BST 12 Oct 2009 Comment In a study of ten of the largest European countries, Britain comes last followed by Ireland, with France and Spain topping the table. Though British households enjoy the highest income, at £35,730 a year, £10,325 higher than the European average, British families have to contend with a high cost of living, with fuel, food and alcohol all costing more than the European average. With a litre of unleaded petrol at £1.08 a litre, the UK is the second most expensive country in Europe. However, diesel is more expensive in the UK than anywhere else in Europe – £1.13 a litre, which is 19p or 20 per cent above the European average of £0.94. The report by price comparison website uSwitch analyses 10 European countries against 17 different benchmarks, from the price of gas, electricity, fuel, food and drink to the amount each country spends on education, health to working conditions and the weather. The top three countries are France, Spain and Denmark, with Sweden, Ireland and Britain coming eighth, ninth and tenth respectively. Related Articles Energy bills could hit £2,000 09 Oct 2009 £225 'offline' energy penalty 03 Sep 2009 The study comes less than a week after the United Nations moved Britain out of the top 20 list of most desirable countries to live in for the first time. While France and Germany were initially hit hard by the global financial crisis, both have officially exited their recessions, while Britain has yet to confirm this has happened. Later this week, despite signs of recovery in the housing market and buoyant retail sales, there is expected to be grim economic news with unemployment predicted to have climbed to above 2.5 million for the first time since 1994. The uSwitch report indicated that Britain suffers from the lowest number of days holiday per year, with the average worker entitled to 26 days, well below Spain on 41. British consumers also pays the highest prices for diesel, food and the country spends below the European average, as a percentage of GDP, on health, and education. It also has the 4th lowest life expectancy in Europe, at 78.9 years, compared with above 80 years in France, Italy and Sweden and workers retire later than most of their European counterparts. Ann Robinson, Director of Consumer Policy at uSwitch, said: "There is more to good living than money and this report shows why so many Brits are giving up on the UK and heading to France and Spain. "We earn substantially more than our European neighbours, but this level of income is needed just to keep a roof over our heads, food on the table and our homes warm. It’s giving us a decent standard of living, but it’s not helping us achieve the quality of life that people in other countries enjoy." Telegraph

Juxa http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local/hunt_for_clues_in_sheffield_stabbing_murder_1_3832320 He was a good kid. Well known. Always smiling. Played for the team we set up back in '03. Nuune, reer SL waabay waasheen. A guy who works and earns a decent wage will marry again because he works

^Don't give him ideas Afternoon all. Maxaa la waramay? Has the heat wave subsided? Tragic news of a Somali kid killed in my hometown. Illahay ha u naxaristo.

^Is it only secularism that allows people to 'live and let live'? Its one thing advocating for secularism (anyone can advocate for anything) but its quite another explaining why it would be better than a form of Sharia. The age old European renaissance argument doesn't quite fit.

Reer Hargaisa are cheap skates

Why should a country that is 99.99% Muslim be secular? * haven't been through the thread

CG, can you show us where the birth took place on google earth? The baby doesn't look white to me. Just light skinned.

Sultan Dheere;748871 wrote: It feels like I couldn't be bothered. Another thing is I question certain things in Islam and then immediately afterwards I question my status as a Muslim because I questioned certain elemens of Islam. It messed with my head. Things that a Muslim would never question amongst other Muslims due to fear of backlash. Nothing wrong with having questions. Just don't let them linger (seek answers). Rudy, thats your first serious post in years. Nice one

LoooL Is that Shiekh aamusane? didn't recognise him without the hat. Somali style Presidential Security. Waaweenaa wuxu JB, triple will be better. Need fingers in all 3 pies