From yours truly.

[Wadani]

Salahudin;925290 wrote:

I think what wadani meant is that as a somali society we give women lots of freedom.

And we do, dont we Salahudin?

[Wadani]

To SomaliPhilosopher and underdog,

 

She hasn't won by my usage of the word 'give'. In fact it just highlights how woefully blinded she is to the inherent weakness of women vis a vis men. If weren't the voluntary allowances men made for woman in the areas of politics, education, work and business what powers or means of effective change do woman have at their disposal that could force men to grant these rights from a position of weakness? These feminists decry what they call benevolent sexism, but the irony is it's this very same benevolent sexism that has motivated men to cede many rights to women. Feminists have to understand that they didn't take their rights from men, but they were graciously given these rights by men.

[Salahudin]

we definitely do...

[SomaliPhilosopher]

Let me ask you. So before these rights were given to woman ever so 'graciously' by men, who kept them in void of such rights all along?

[Somalicentric]

Wadani is a seemingly grown man, i am pretty sure he doesn't need foot soldiers that muddy the water by referring to abstract entities that seek to deflect rather than illuminate inequities... i.e. you mother******

 

Apophis;925293 wrote:

The weak serve the strong. This is a universal constant.

I love how you are acting like there is an inherent truth to this that needs no reifying.

[Wadani]

SomaliPhilosopher;925306 wrote:

Let me ask you. So before these rights were given to woman ever so 'graciously' by men, who kept them in void of such rights all along?

Before I answer let's contextualize. Are we talking from a Western standpoint?

[Wadani]

Apophis;925308 wrote:

I find myself strangely agreeing with you. Women did not take "their rights" from men but rather men artificially created "rights" for women and

gave

it to women. "Rights" of all kinds are artificial and not inherent.

Y is it strange Apo? I've agreed with u on many things besides religion.

 

As for ur assertion that rights are socially contructed and not inherent, I would have agreed if it were no the fact that I believe in the objective universalism of the rights and obligations set out in the Quran.

[SomaliPhilosopher]

idk. the standpoint that was used as your point of reference for your address to me and underdog.

[Somalicentric]

Wadani;925302 wrote:

To SomaliPhilosopher and underdog,

 

She hasn't won by my usage of the word 'give'. In fact it just highlights how woefully blinded she is to the inherent weakness of women vis a vis men. If weren't the voluntary allowances men made for woman in the areas of politics, education, work and business what powers or means of effective change do woman have at their disposal that could force men to grant these rights from a position of weakness? These feminists decry what they call benevolent sexism, but the irony is it's this very same benevolent sexism that has motivated men to cede many rights to women. Feminists have to understand that they didn't take their rights from men, but they were graciously given these rights by men.

 

underdog;925288 wrote:

This is the original unwinable argument. Don't go down that road.

It's safe to say, it's too late now.

[Wadani]

SomaliPhilosopher;925313 wrote:

idk. the standpoint that was used as your point of reference for your address to me and underdog.

Well in that case I was talking largely from a Western standpoint, even though my general point of men graciously granting rights to women is applicable the world over.

 

So back to ur initial question. Men kept women void of their rights. But my point was the women's suffrage movement, along with first, second and third wave feminism did not systematically break down the patriarchy on their own. The patriarchial hold on society was loosened because men felt sufficient guilt, as a result of feminist activism, to cede rights to women. Men are physically stronger than women, and had at their disposal sufficent finacial and technological means to keep woman subjugated, but it was our benevolence rooted in chivalry that resulted in the 'emancipation' of women.

[Somalicentric]

Apophis;925317 wrote:

The only clarification is- sometimes the players change position but the rules of the game do not change.

And who created these "rules"

 

 

Wadani, the persistence that is being put forth towards the shit you espouse is admirable

& i am afraid that is where it stops.

[SomaliPhilosopher]

Wadani;925319 wrote:

Well in that case I was talking largely from a Western standpoint, even though my general point of men graciously granting right to women is applicable the world over.

 

So back to ur initial question. The women's suffrage movement, along with first, second and third wave feminism did not systematically break down the patriarchy on their own. The patriarchial hold on society was loosened because men felt sufficient guilt, as a result of feminist activism, to cede rights to women. Men are physically stronger than women, and had at their disposal sufficent finacial and technological means to keep woman subjugated, but it was our benevolence rooted in chivalry that resulted in the 'emancipation' of women.

I concede.

[Wadani]

Apophis;925326 wrote:

Even under what you believe, "rights" are still created and given and not all the "rights" are universal, some are for the selected few (who fulfil certain arbitrary criteria).

Yes created by God, and yes, universally applicable in so far as u meet the criteria, though they aren't arbitrary in any sense of the word since faith or the lack thereof is a meaningful (in the legal ands rights giving sense) and justified criteria for discrimination within the Islamic context.

[underdog]

for the thousands in attendance and the millions watching around the world ladies and gentlemen.............LLLLETS GET RRRREADYYY TO RUMBLLEEEEEEEEEEE

 

In the blue corner, The Challenger, hailing from the delusional minds of tween females 17-27, the believer of "I can do everything you can do and if I can't it's still your fault"; the one, the only PENiS ENVY

 

 

And in the red corner, with a record of "from the beginning of time till now", the master of "I can build it...and if I can't build it, I can buy it...and if I can't own it, I must destroy it!" The undisputed all-weight-class champion of world MALE PRIVILEGE.

[Wadani]

Somalicentric;925322 wrote:

And who created these "rules"

 

 

Wadani, the persistence that is being put forth towards the shit you espouse is admirable

& i am afraid that is where it stops.

Somalicentric, U shouldn't get upset. Ur still my Somali sister, and I have nothing but respect for u. People can disagre it's no big deal.