Hamza Yussuf: a Shik or a Suufi

[Sakina]

Salafi or early Muslims are the people who died in the first 400 years after the Prophet (saw). Some of the early salafi are Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shafi'i and Ibn Hanbal.

 

The founder of the Salafi movement (nothing to do with the Salafi early Muslims) and it's leader is Ibn Abd al Wahhab and the Saudi family. How can we say that this party has no leader when history (including the salafi history) tell us that this man was the founder of the Wahhabis later changed their name into Salafi?

 

If the Salafi followers have no party or leader then who are they following and why they are not following the Ahlulsunna wa Jama'a? According to the Salafis isn't an innovation to call themselves Salafi Sunni Muslims. Why are they calling themselves Salafi Sunni Muslims and not just Sunni Muslim i.e. followers of the Qur'an and the Sunna?

[Final_Say]

salam Sakina; maybe u should read the post before u sis!!

many of ur questions have already been adressed,

the additional one's that have not be answered i will answer, once u tell me what you think of the answers in the thread inshallah. it will save time, effor and going round in circles which is all i seem to be doing since i joined SOL.

 

salam

[Sakina]

1) Salaf is not a GROUP; with the knowledge u portray i assumed u knew this; its a word which has been personified to describe an action.

1) there is no one leader, or founder of the a xizib/party; although the prophet (PBUP) was the first to use it when he said to fadumo i am ur salaf;

 

2) they don't have party policy or agend's on the side; for example a lot of groups have a party policy direction towards building a khalifa.

 

3) the word it self describes the actions of people, rather than the name or the group or the founder, which differes it frm the existing groups!!

 

in any case the ulum's said that as it is not good to attach ur self to any group, saying i follow salafiya takes you out of all groups and distinguish u frm deviant groups, and so that you know who to take ur knowledge frm..

I don't know how long the Salafis will dance around the issue of their leadership. Since the Prophet(saw) is not with us who is the person or Alim that said you should not attach yourself to one group and where did he get it from and why are you calling yourself Salafi Sunni Muslim? and why the salafi become confrontational whenever they are asked about their LEADER.? Sooner or later the Salafi have to realize that people will not follow them blindly and the issue of leadership will always hunt them.

 

I'm going to end with Viking's quote

mizz,I'm not a sis, a Viking was always a man. And, I missed the part where you said 'Salafi Sunni Muslims', I realise now it was not meant for the Muslims in general but rather a group among Muslims. Cheers!

[Viking]

Sakina,

There is a very important verse of the Qur'an that the so called "Salafi" are overlooking.

 

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you ISLAM as your religion."- Al Ma'idah 5:3

 

If a Muslim believes that Allah SWT has perfected our religion and called it ISLAM, should they be calling it anything other than that? It would be a major innovation.

[Haneefah]

Subhanallah! Subhanallah! This is truly sad.

 

May Allah swt guide us to the straight path and bless us with the light of knowledge and understanding of His beloved deen.Ya Allah stop this overwhelming confusion and hostility that seems to be epidemic among Muslims nowadays. Indeed Muslims are facing a difficult time as there is the ever-increasing lack of solidarity and peace among us, so let's not further this division by categorizing and sectifying Islam. It's just wrong!

 

It literally depresses me when I see Muslims resort to labelling and insults, as though Allah doesn't hold them accountable, in attempt to prove their own interpretations and to disprove others while calling them 'misguided' and deluded. Ya Allah. I mean some people become their ideas; they're so engrained in their thoughts and perceptions that they forget about humanity.

 

I personally had an encounter with a Muslim fella(a store owner) few weeks ago who, to say the least, nearly jumped down my throat just becuase I had asked if he carried some of Shaikh Hamza's work. I'm not even gonna get into his accusations and reasoning for obvious reasons, but I was just speechless and I left thinking walahi we need to go back to the basic teachings of Islam specifically about the sunnah of Rasuul of Allah(saw)

 

Also, I would like to remind some of you that the scholars have an elevated status in Islam as Allah swt states this the Qur'an: "Allah will exalt in degree those of you who believe, and those who have been granted knowledge"[al-Mujaadilah 58:11]...so beware of the manners in which you speak of them.

 

Allah Knows Best!

 

P.S. Hamza Yusuf is an amazing sheikh whom Allah swt has granted great knowledge and the ability to touch so many lives in N. America (and increasingly globally). May Allah reward him immensely and all those who contribute to the global ummah, and may Allah forgive their sins.

[Final_Say]

salam all;

 

sakinah;

it seems to me that u are very convinced in ur ways, and u have ur own views about salafis/salayifah, which will not change regardless of wat i say. it is not my duty to convince u that they are a correct or guided group, i have shared with you what i know about Islam, and with interpretations from the salaifi's, if u gonna start trippin about that, it is not my fault. What ever dislike you have for salafi's is between u and Allah. as for this leader u keep talking about, my leader is prophet Mohammed (PBUH), he is also the leader of the salafi ulam's, he is the most perfect leader and the only one u need!!

 

my advice to you and me and everyone else is follow him to the best of your ability, but follow him with knowledge, as you said Mohammed (PBUH) is not with us; so where you obtain your knowledge from is up to you. i personally choose to get my knowledge from salaif ulum's, but i don't disrespect other ulum's, it that a crime, to take ur knowledge from who ur comfortable taking knowledge from, who u think is the most trust worthy, and most correct in UR VIEW!!

 

“you should not attach yourself to one group and where did he get it from and why are you calling yourself Salafi Sunni Muslim? and why the salafi become confrontational whenever they are asked about their LEADER.?â€

 

Again it is evident you have not read the thread; but i'll answer anyway; it also seems that only confrontational Attitude going on is urs, i was in no way, shape or form rude or confrontational to u.

1) there reason behind not attaching your self to a group is; that since there are 73 sectors, all of them going to hell, except one, attaching your self to a group is not the best way to attain safety, rather following the guidance of the sunnah and quran, and using the work of trusted scholars for clarifications and guidance on issues that are not clear cut. If your knowledgeable enough to do it ur self, den by all means run along, from my point of view, it sounds though like me, u can do with some help and interpretations

 

 

By the way, using Viking quote, is that emphasising the intention of the thread, i.e. its audience or ur sexuality, or both? Either way, my suggestion to you is if you need information about salafiyah; ask and be open minded.

 

 

viking;

 

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you ISLAM as your religion."- Al Ma'idah 5:3

 

yes it id true that allah has completed the religion fro us, and i aint trying to add anything. Personally i need help interrupting hadith and extended meanings of the quran, maybe you can do it ur self, but i can't. i also need guidance on things that have not been around at the time of the prophet, or things that have no clear distinct ruling on it; FOR example, communicating with the opposite sex over phones and internet, chat rooms, eating food with gelatine in it etc; if you viking can do all this on your own, then you can follow ur self, ur own interpretations, and guidance; i can't and i get the help i need from a specific ulum's, which are know for their reliability, trust worthiness and truthfulness; such as shik abdual wahab; which many people in this forum seem to have a problem with!

 

Well the thing is i aint telling anyone to follow anything, or anyone, people on life are free to do what they wish, I personally am gonna call my self to account for my actions and deeds before accounting for anyone else!!

So do what you think is correct, if it differs from my view, it does not matter, as each person is judged on their own.

 

 

Ihsan;

 

“Allah will exalt in degree those of you who believe, and those who have been granted knowledge"[al-Mujaadilah 58:11]...

 

it is true, that hamza yussuf has done some great work on certain areas; I said I love his tape “remembering the days of allahâ€, and the 1st edition of his book “purification of the soulâ€. This is not a scholar bashing thread, it was not intended to be so.

 

 

salamz

[Sakina]

There are a lot of differences between Wahhabis and Ahlusunna wa jamaa. Wahhabis started calling themselves Salafi only about 30 years ago. Before that they were always called Wahhabis. The late Ibn Baaz and Albani are well known Salafi Sheikhs. While the Ahlusunna wa jamaa schools of thought follow authentic Islamic jurisprudence by following the Salafi Imams (Hanaf, Shafi'i, Malik and ibn Hanbal) the Salafi follow Mohammad ibn Abdulwahhab's interpretation of Islam. The Salafi sect have destroyed graves and masjids to prevent the muslims from as they claim Shirk but refused to demolish the grave of Ibn Taymiyah in Damascus (syria) to make way for a road. It is these type of discrepancies that I don't understand Mizz. S. Lander. They destroyed the sites of the battles of Uhud and Badr and now we have a parking lot. They're (maybe already) demolishing the small library located where the Prophet (saw) was born and are building the King Fahd's Library and are planning to destroy more historical sites and build sites to remember the Wahhabi and Saudi families. They destroyed Khadija's house and turn into a public toilet. Last year they ordered the destruction of Masjib Abu Bakr, Masjid Umar ibn al Khattab, Masjid Salman al Farsi, Masjid Fatima bint Rasulullah and Masjid Ali ibn Abi Talib. They changed the color of the Green Dome into silver but Alhamdullillah Muslims woke up and petitioned and now it is back to its original color Green a color loved by the Prophet (saw).

Can't you see what is going on Mizz. S. Lander? This is not about you and I liking or diliking the Salafi sect. While we are busy discussing about them they are busy destroying our history bu demolishing our historical sites and rewriting our books of Sahihs by taking away all the ahadith that they feel are againsts their agenda. Have you noticed that the new versions of Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari many ahadith are missing. That is why when people quote ahadith they are unable to find from their new versions printed in Saudi Arabia. How can Salafis accept the demolition of the site of our beloved Prophet (saw) and build a building that bears the name of King Fahad.

[Rahima]

Before that they were always called Wahhabis.

By who? Yeah that’s right, the Brits/kuffaar

 

The Salafi sect have destroyed graves and masjids to prevent the muslims from as they claim Shirk but refused to demolish the grave of Ibn Taymiyah in Damascus (syria) to make way for a road.

Under the assumption that this is the truth, how can you paint Salafiyyah as the culprit? I can claim to be an upstanding citizen of the community, yet commit morally repugnant acts everyday, be it theft or murder. Similarly people can make claims of adhering to the Salafi/Ahlus sunnah idealogy yet commit actions displaying otherwise.

 

That is why when people quote ahadith they are unable to find from their new versions printed in Saudi Arabia.

It’s called a summarized version- if you want the original (countless volumes), you can always get it. It’s not like people took out ahadith because there is something to hide or they do not recognize them, it is just for convenience.

You can still get the full thing.

 

A lot of theories really, but with all due respect no real substance. You are doing exactly what the kuffar do these days, one Muslim stuffs up and Islam is bad. A few people who claim Salafiyyah (they might in essence even be, we all make mistakes) stuff up and Salafiyyah is bad. Next time be objective, rather than giving all these conspiracy theories not based on much. Say what you want, but be mindful of who you attribute problems to. At least be distinctive and say certain individuals who claim to adhere to the salafi ideology….

[Viking]

Originally posted by mizz_S.lander:

viking;

 

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you ISLAM as your religion."- Al Ma'idah 5:3

 

yes it id true that allah has completed the religion fro us, and i aint trying to add anything. Personally i need help interrupting hadith and extended meanings of the quran, maybe you can do it ur self, but i can't. i also need guidance on things that have not been around at the time of the prophet, or things that have no clear distinct ruling on it; FOR example, communicating with the opposite sex over phones and internet, chat rooms, eating food with gelatine in it etc; if you viking can do all this on your own, then you can follow ur self, ur own interpretations, and guidance; i can't and i get the help i need from a specific ulum's, which are know for their reliability, trust worthiness and truthfulness; such as shik abdual wahab; which many people in this forum seem to have a problem with!

mizz S.lander,

AbdulWahab al-Najdi died in 1787. So he can not give you "guidance on things that have not been around at the time of the prophet".

 

PS: I'm not against all scholars but rather the doctrines of the sects that divide us.

[xiinfaniin]

Right on, Rahima.

[Sakina]

Rahima if all the things I said are theories then why don't you prove me wrong. I've participated in many threads about Salafiyya. In each one of them I was asked to give proof which I did from your own books. Give me proof that the Salafis and the Saudi family are not collaborating together. Give me proof that the salafis are not celebrating Abdul Wahhab's death every year at the Imam Mohamed Ibn Saud University praising him with poetry etc. How can salafis accuse muslims of innovations when they are doing the same thing. Answer me about Ibn Baaz (which you claim is one of the great salafi sheiks) fatwa about the earth not been round?

Tell me the story of Ibn Abdulwahhab from your own prospective. Tell me when this sect started calling themselves Salafi. It is not a question as you put it of certain individuals doing something wrong. I have no problem with that, every madhhab has it but in the case of the salafi sect it is your highest learned Sheikhs giving fatwas against other muslims. One thing I noticed about the salafi people is that they always ask proof but they never follow up or comment when the proofs are given to them.

[sahal]

Rahima, I think you know very well who we meant, we don't mean the Scho;ars who were labeled as SALAFI like Salma Al-awda, Safar Al-xawali, Abdurahman Abdulkhaliq (whom salafi da'wa himself kicked them out the so-called salafiyah arena.

 

You know the difference very well as i said b4 I still rember that you were defending the above SCHO:ARS from salafi da'wa Isn't it? or am i wrong? please answer..

 

what i'm afraid is that you're avoiding the critics of this group . if this is the case i want to remind you that you cann't escape the critics and insult of this group unless you agreed with them 100%, they don't recognize 99.99%. they know "Either with us or against us".

 

 

Haven't you listened their cassetes or read their books, websites etc. or you want me to give you some information about them?.

 

However, I am still waiting from you the answer of this question.

 

 

"With regard to the 3 ULUMA's (Sh. Albani. Bin Baz. and Sh. Cuthaymiin) that you mentioned, there is no doubt that they were some of the greatest ULUMA in our time.

 

What i disagree with you is however, to call them as SALAFIS, rather i would like to call them ISLAMIC SCHOLARS. and of course as other ISLAMIC SCHOLARS they had different views in many ISSUES which some of them are fundamental issues; like the MUSLIM who don't perform 5 daily prayers.

 

Sheikh Albani see taarikal salaat as MUSLIM, while the other two Sheikhs (Bin BAz and Cuthaymiin) see as KAAFIR who should be divorced his wife and not be buried at the MUSLIm graves etc.

 

The other issue is entering Democratic process and becoming member of the parliament in Muslim countries, Sheikh Albani see as KUFR action to join these parliaments while other two Sheikhs see as necessary to join the political process and to become member of the parliament enz.

 

on the basis of these and many other facts like American troops in Arabian Penisula, Palestine struggle, Niqab which most of them are actually fundamental issues, I consider them as part of MUSLIM SCHOLARS who can differ in some issues while they agree in many issues and not as particullar group. because if they're in one particullar group, as you mentioned, they would at least agree on fundamental issues.

 

 

Do you agree the above quote or not?

[Final_Say]

salamz peopel;

 

wow, seems like people have some really big issues in here, it also seems like you guys have covered this ground before in other threads, which i'm starting to find out.

 

in any case with all the research u guys have done for other threads, you are well ahead of me; so i'll just give you a short answer, to your eassay questions. when i finish my exams next week inshallah, i'll have more time to send you structured answers, as i do not want to simple copy and past;

 

sakina sis i'll will inshallah try and answer all of ur questions; but first can you make your position clear for me;

Are you against the salafi foundation, which steems from the so called “wahibaiyaâ€

You do not like the doctrine of the salafi or abdual wahab

But you are a follower of alhulu sunnah wa jamaca

U say ur books; which books?

Who is them, known scholars of salafiya or lay people;

Last but not least; I consider my self as a sunni muslim following the interpretations of the salafiya; can what i do/ my actions be used to attack or praise the salafi’s in general.

This is the understanding I’m getting, CORRECT OR NOT;

 

 

Viking;

Brother; are you telling me that there are no issues that abdul wahab gives rulings on that were not present at the time of the prophet?

if that the case would i be correct to say that it would not have mattered if abdual wahab existed or not; in other words, as his work is a repeat of the prophet, there is nothing that he can tell us or contribute; interpretations or clarifications;

lastly but not least is he one of the scholars your against.

 

“PS: I'm not against all scholars but rather the doctrines of the sects that divide

usâ€

 

great at least we partly agree on one thing, maybe from a common ground is better place for debate then ground 0

 

Rahima:

 

May allah bless you for ur contributions and increase your understanding of islam inshallah;

 

Sahal:

 

Brother I don’t get you; where do you stand;

Are you acting as devil advocate for the sake of it,

 

“what i'm afraid is that you're avoiding the critics of this group . if this is the case i want to remind you that you cann't escape the critics and insult of this group unless you agreed with them 100%, they don't recognize 99.99%. they know "Either with us or against us".

 

Okay so you don’t like salafiya (even though I understood differently at first), you don’t use their material? correct?

On a scale of 1----------------10, if I’m at 1, and sakina is at 10 , where do you stand!

 

Inshallah after I get these clarifications, I’ll try and answer u all.

 

Salamz

[sahal]

Whenever I asked question to Rahima you answere it! I don't understand why? are you spokesperson of Rahima or so? I didn't ask any question to you So, you don't nedd to answer.

 

The person that i asked the question must answer or leave it. full stop.

 

And if I answer your question: It depends who you mean Salafiyah? if you meant Rabiic Madkhali and his likes i'm at # 10 as you said and if you mean Sheikh Salman Al-awda and his likes i'm at #1 , so clear yourself who you mean when you're saying SALAFIYAH Do you mean Madkhali or Salman al-awda?

[Final_Say]

hhmm i see some one is getting so wat something; relax, and take a seat

 

i did't answer any questions so why are u trippin, i just asked you if ur playing devil advocate?

 

and anyway brother an answer is an answer in my view,

the reason i answer because i see u target rahima in twisted ways, trying to confuse her, and before i corrected you on the evidence u were using against her; simple as, i see you trying to convince her of your ways, and i don't wanna see her consumed by hate and bias views that are coming out of u;

 

ur trying to make her look bad for suggesting that she is avoiding ur questions;

it seems like u don't want answers to questions, your just trying to pick holes in wat rahima is trying to tell u, which is so clear my little brother understands. don't get it twisted;

 

don't worry i got ur answer for my question; cheers for da Clarification and i'll leave rahim to tidy u up, fix u up a little;

 

 

SALAMZ