Johnny B Posted May 1, 2006 ^^ My Graad, I see no dialogue (not even one with a thread of 500 pages )between Nur and Cara where Nur objectively proves the existance of his Allah rationally,thus comes to bedrock, and Cara´s neutral skepticism exactly demands that. what i see is, however, Nur revelling in his own personal perceptions( already started ) . And Cara (among many others , including myself )will walk away disappointed becouse the status Nur used to enjoy as our self-proclaimed resident sheikh proportioned to what he offers theologically as the solid proof, is a great disappointment of sort. not to only Islam but to all the Abrahamic religious heritage. A:How can you possitively proof your claim that your Allah exists? B: becouse my Allah says so and so... A: i see .. Nur, only you can increase the percentage after you´re 100% dead. That is all i see , so this time i plead to Cara , please sister, becouse of the aimlessness of the dialogue and the concomitant result refrain from beeing part of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Didi Kong Posted May 2, 2006 Originally posted by J B: A:How can you possitively proof your claim that your Allah exists? B: becouse my Allah says so and so... A: i see .. Xujada badanaa, no doubt this originates from your lack of talent. I don't see anything wrong with that answer, and if you are looking to confine the debate here to follow the methods of inquiry and reaching conclusions as dictated by modern western scientific thought to proof the existence of Allah then you are being delusional. Because this system was designed to zoom in on matter/material and not on the agent. When Nur presents the proofs from the Quran I think y'all should pay ear because it is the supreme truth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Castro Posted May 2, 2006 My man JB, since you're a man of logic, here are some "proofs" that may (or not) be of interest to you. And though they're certainly high on the oouucc factor, they show how sophistry can be a powerful tool. But Nur didn't resort to that. Remember that he wants to save you from a one way ticket to eternal damnation. A worthy goal indeed. And you are in turn wanting him to lighten up and quit wasting his time believing in the unseen. Another worthy goal, on its own, except it is in direct conflict with the first goal. While you think of that conundrum, enjoy these proofs below (and keep a barf bag handy ): Inspired by this story I found on the Daily Grail, here are a number of mathematical “proofs†of God! Is there anything to any of these, or is it simply more proof that one can prove anything with numbers? From the link above: Albert Einstein’s equation states that Energy = Mass x C2. The law of physics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed. Which means the energy that created the universe cannot have a beginning nor an end. Also, there must be something that existed before the universe and that will continue to exist after the universe. That is the definition of God. By applying Albert Einstein’s formula, the universe must have a creator because the universe has mass (M). God does not need a creator because God does not have mass (M). God is energy (E). Thus when people ask the question, “If God created mankind, who created God?â€, they mistakenly imagine God as having a form or mass. Only mass needs a creator, not energy. The creator of mass is of course, energy. The theory of God’s existence is in line with mathematical theory. Here’s Godel’s Ontological Proof (which uses Modal Logic): We first assume the following axiom: Axiom 1: It is possible to single out positive properties from among all properties. Gödel defines a positive property rather vaguely: “Positive means positive in the moral aesthetic sense (independently of the accidental structure of the world)… It may also mean pure attribution as opposed to privation (or containing privation).†(Gödel 1995) We then assume that the following three conditions hold for all positive properties (which can be summarized by saying “the positive properties form an ultrafilterâ€): Axiom 2: If P is positive and P entails Q, then Q is positive. Axiom 3: If P1, P2, P3, …, Pn are positive properties, then the property (P1 AND P2 AND P3 … AND Pn) is positive as well. Axiom 4: If P is a property, then either P or its negation is positive, but not both. Finally, we assume: Axiom 5: Necessary existence is a positive property (Pos(NE)). This mirrors the key assumption in Anselm’s argument. Now we define a new property G: if x is an object in some possible world, then G(x) is true if and only if P(x) is true in that same world for all positive properties P. G is called the “God-like†property. An object x that has the God-like property is called God. Here’s a very long (no excerpts) proof of God based on Gematria in the Koran! Here’s a “simple†version of George Hammond’s “Scientific Proof of God†Because the 3-Axis geometry of the body is caused by the 3-Axis geometry of real-space, the curvature in Psychometry space is obviously caused by the curvature in real space, which is known to be “Gravityâ€. Hence, “Gravity causes God†and the whole theory of God is identical to the theory of Relativity. The Metrical identity [XYZt]=[ENPg] immediately yield’s God=Guv. QED, there is a real God. Finally, here’s a proof from a Medieval Monk named Guido Ubaldus: 0 = 0 + 0 + 0 + … = (1 - 1) + (1 - 1) + (1 - 1) + … = 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + … = 1 + (-1 + 1) + (-1 + 1) + (-1 + 1) + … = 1 + 0 + 0 + 0 + … = 1 Now, I’m no mathematician and have no desire to agree or disagree with any of these, but aren’t they interesting? Source Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khayr Posted May 2, 2006 Faith is like the compus that stirs you to what is BEYOND. Socrates believed that the highest form of knowledge was wisdom. When Socrates asked the Sophists (greek teachers that taught and engaged in rhetoric and debate)asked them simple questions such as what is truth?, what is honor? etc... the Sophists couldn't answer them properly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dunya vs Akhira Posted May 2, 2006 Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). ... keep that in mind Nuun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Socod_badne Posted May 2, 2006 Originally posted by Castro: Albert Einstein’s equation states that Energy = Mass x C2. The law of physics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed. Only true for NON-nuclear reactions. During nuclear reactions (fission and fusion) energy/matter is created AND/OR destroyed. Right of the bat, on the wrong footing (wrong assumption). Not a good omen but lets see. Which means the energy that created the universe cannot have a beginning nor an end. Also, there must be something that existed before the universe and that will continue to exist after the universe. That is the definition of God. Here is a good example of what happens when you're starting assumptions are wrong. There is no logic or evidence to support the first sentence in the above quote. And the last sentence is complete Non Sequitur. 0 = 0 + 0 + 0 + … = (1 - 1) + (1 - 1) + (1 - 1) + … = 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + … = 1 + (-1 + 1) + (-1 + 1) + (-1 + 1) + … = 1 + 0 + 0 + 0 + … = 1 but aren’t they interesting? No, not interesting at all. It's a joke, 0 doesn't equal to 1. Seriously, this is silly but on the bright got good chuckles from it. I've seen E = MC^2 before, used to prove Jesus but this is the first time I've seen used to prove God. What's next? Shydhaan? Oh the anticipation is gripping! You can't prove God. Lack of prove for God is NOT prove of his non-existance either. Simply put, you can't prove one way or another whether God exists or not. Believe in God hinges, at least for me it is, on faith. Like your instinct, serendipity, intuition... you just have to believe minus evidence or prove. What are we trying to accomplish here? Provide a definitive proof for God's existance? If so, you got one problem. Prove, as used in this thread, relies on logic. Logically 'proven' proposition doesn't always mean true. It's not too difficult to contruct logically tenable prove because all you need to do is show your conclusion follows from your premise(s). But your premise(s) can be wrong as far as concordance with facts goes. Remember Logic vs Reality, Reality ALWAYS wins. No matter what. So relying purely logic is misleading. Instead the discussion should be centered on providing EVIDENCE for God's existance (but not his non-existance, that is impossible). Equally daunting task but good luck to who ever wants to take a crack. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nur Posted May 2, 2006 The Agnostic and the Boy Agnostic visits a Mosque Agnostic: I have 3 questions for you Muslims Muslims: Go up the pulpit and ask Agnostic: 1. You believe Allah? then where is he facing? 2. You say he created everything, who created Allah? 3. What is Allah doing at this exact moment? Muslims, confused, unprepared to answer these questions; A 12 year old boy in the crowd volunteers to asnwer the questions the elders could not. He was later permitted to challenge the Agnostic. Boy: First question; Allah is Light of the heavens and earth, light faces all directions, wherever you face, there is the face of Allah. Boy: Second Question: I must ask you a question to answer your question. What comes before the number 9? Agnostic, smiling: , of course the nymber 8 son. Boy, good, what comes before 8? The countdown continues......to the number 1 ( One) Boy: What comes before number 1 ( One)? Agnostic : Zero comes after the number 1 (one) Boy: Allah is 1, there is nothing before Allah Boy: In order to answer Third question, you have to come down the pulpit ( Manbar) and allow me to go up there to answer the final question. Agnostic: OK, he comes down Boy goes up the pulpit, Boy: So you want to know what Allah is doing at this exact moment? Agnostic: yes Boy: Allah just brought you down in shame, and rasied me above you in glory. The boy, will becme one of the four scholars of Islam, if my memory does not fail me, he was Imam Abu Hanifa. Nur Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khalaf Posted May 2, 2006 Asslaamu Alaykum, I respect that this is a dialogue between brother Nur and sister Cara, inshallah it can be discussion and the most important one I have come across thus far. Inshallah certain individuals will not ruin this topic, but we can actually learn from one another. Brother Nur it was the mention of Abu Hanifa may Allah be pleased with him, that I want to add this which I found on islam.com: source The same question was asked, by an atheist (about existence of Allah), of Imam Abu Hanifa and he replied, "Forget it! At the moment, I am busy thinking about this ship. People tell me there is a big ship, it contains different goods on board. There is no one to steer it, no one maintaining it. Yet, this ship keeps going back and forth; it even traverses big waves on the oceans; it stops at the locations that it is supposed to stop at; it continues in the direction that it is supposed to head. This ship has no captain and no one planning its trips." The atheist who posed the question interrupted and exclaimed, "What kind of strange and silly thought is this? How can any intelligent person think that some thing like this can occur?" Imam Abu Hanifa said, "I feel sorry about your state! You cannot imagine one ship running without some one looking after its affairs. Yet you think that for this whole world, which runs exactly and precisely, there is no one who looks after it, and no one owns it." How about this then: in terms of knowing whether there is a god or not, I'm agnostic. In my view one cannot claim that there is or is no god or gods. But in terms of my personal belief, my feeling is that there is no god or gods. ----You are right my dear sister, there is NO God or gods you are correct, however But Allah. Again I don’t fault the sister, in fact I think she and those who deny a Supreme Being are following the Quran, there is No God or Gods, however they should understand But Allah. most human beings including many Muslims are blind followers of their forefathers….you are a Muslim cause your parents are, Christian cause your parents are, ect. This is not the way of Islam….Islam is for those who think. She has used her reasoning, intellect tho she is surrounded by religion to deny a creator. Main arguments I come across, is that If I can’t see it….then why should I believe it in. My opinion is we should explore what: La illaha illal la means and signifies. Also, science, the laws of nature….the physics of the physical world are all in agreement with Quran, the more human being studies science, the more everything is pointed to a Creator. We should explore this also. Thus evidence for a creator are all around us, you don't need to see the Creator face to face...the signs are here....reasoning can show us that. And don't mention it sister Cara, pleasure is mine. Only true for NON-nuclear reactions. During nuclear reactions (fission and fusion) energy/matter is created AND/OR destroyed. -----SB I don’t want to make it debate, I don’t care for it. But if I remember from physics class in nuclear reactions, the law of Conservation of Mass (which states that mass of the universe is constant, matter is neither created nor destroyed) is modified just a little bit. In Einsteins equation, energy is introduced and is equivalent to matter. If I remember correctly in nuclear rxns when matter and anti-matter are reacted, destruction doesn’t happen but inter-conversion, mass converts to energy-radiation in this case. Thus the law still holds true even in nuclear reactions. salaamu lah Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asxabul_kahf Posted May 2, 2006 Three Questions There was a young man who went overseas to study for quite a long time. When he returned, he asked his parents to find him a religious scholar or any expert who could answer his 3 questions. Finally, his parents were able to find a Muslim scholar. Young man: Who are you? Can you answer my questions? Scholar: I am one of Allah (SubHana Wa Ta`ala )'s slaves and insha-Allah (God willing), I will be able to answer your questions. Young man : Are you sure? A lot of Professors and experts were not able to answer my questions. Scholar: I will try my best, with the help of Allah SubHana Wa Ta`ala. Young Man: I have 3 questions: 1. Does God exist? If so, show me His shape. 2. What is takdir (fate)? 3. If shaitan (Devil) was created from the fire, why at the end he will be thrown to hell that also created from fire. It certainly will not hurt him at all, since Shaitan (Devil) and the hell were created from fire. Did God not think of it this far? Suddenly, the Scholar slapped the young man's face very hard. Young Man (feeling pain): Why do you get angry at me? Scholar: I am not angry. The slap is my answer to your three questions. Young Man: I really don't understand. Scholar: How do you feel after I slapped you? Young Man: Of course, I felt the pain. Scholar: So do you believe that pain exists? Young Man: Yes Scholar: Show me the shape of the pain! Young Man: I cannot. Scholar: That is my first answer. All of us feel God's existence without being able to see His shape. Scholar: Last night, did you dream that you will be slapped by me? Young Man: No. Scholar: Did you ever think that you will get a slap from me, today? Young Man: No. Scholar: That is takdir (fate). Scholar: My hand that I used to slap you, what is it created from? Young Man: It is created from skin. Scholar: How about your face, what is it created from? Young Man: Skin. Scholar: How do you feel after I slapped you? Young Man: In pain. Scholar: Even though Shaitan (Devil) and also the hell were created from the fire, if Allah wants, insha-Allah (God willing), the hell will become a very painful place for Shaitan (Devil). It is sad because they start by being DISTRACTED by SHEYTAN, to being HABITUALLY DISTRACTED..to GONE (deaf,dumb and blind) mentioned in suratul Al-Hashr -Their allies deceived them), like the Evil One, when he says to man, "Deny Allah": but when (man) denies Allah, (the Evil One) says, "I am free of thee: I do fear Allah, the Lord of the Worlds!" 59:16 -Therefore the end of both of them is that they are both in the fire to abide therein, and that is the reward of the unjust. 59:17 -O ye who believe! Fear Allah, and let every soul look to what (provision) He has sent forth for the morrow. Yea, fear Allah: for Allah is well-acquainted with (all) that ye do. 59:18 -And be not like those who forsook Allah, so He made them forsake their own souls: these it is that are the transgressors.59:19 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ElPunto Posted May 2, 2006 Who cares about atheists? Why does anyone bother with them? Atheism is the very hieght, the apogee, of human ego and anyone who subscribes to that is beyond the pale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
opportunist Posted May 2, 2006 Blind obedience to religious doctrines may be dangerous and harmful to ones own rational thinking. They say God is Just and the most merciful, however perfect justice and perfect merciful god wouldn’t always coincide. A perfect God would forgive our sins yet at the same a Just god would punish us for our sins. Conditional promises are every where in most religions, its like promising a child, if U will be good for the entire day, I will reward you to a lollypop Most preachers of all religions assure us that not one of God's promises had ever failed or will fail in the future. These are pretty remarkable promises, and they should be quite easy to verify. If you think you can stand on all the promises found in the all books of different religions, think long and hard about them. It would be only human, to be honest with yourself, and if you don't like the answers you get, maybe you should think about standing on something other than the promises of a book of ancient myths. Maybe you should consider standing on your own, in a mature, rational manner, as nearly all humans are capable of doing. There has been more then a few books and hundreds of prophets all claiming to be the only inspired truth from the God above, one should not be blamed for doubting what’s real and not. I'm well aware that people who are religious aren't mindless folks - under most circumstances. However, there are times when their eyes glaze over and the ability to think is tossed overboard faster than they can toss a coin into the thin air. It would be simpler to say that if God does exists in people’s mind and let them freely interpret their own revelation however they see it fit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nur Posted May 2, 2006 Opportunist If you have seen one, you have not seen them all, Religion is different than Deen, may be, that is why we have more agnostics who were broght up in all faiths except in Islam, because, Islam is a Deen, a complete code and a road map that connects the past to the present of a person, guides them thru life and prepares them for an eternal life. It is simple, humble, and easy to understand and follow. Religion in Arabic is traslated as NIHLA ( NIXLA), which is a collection of rituals. While the word Deen, in Arabic has the following meanings: 1. A Code of living 2. Submission to a Higher authority 3. Accountability So, before you level a blanket judgment on all faiths, that you ook a little closer to Islam, you may be in for a surprise as you will discover why all those Muslims are so passionate on their faith more than any other faithfuls to theirs, also why is the quraan the most read book on earth on adily basis, why Muslims pray more prayers, build more places of worship, preach their faith to others, simply, a faith that has something for you to examine. Stary with thr Quran. Nur Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Haseena Posted May 3, 2006 Bismillah, Wa Calaykum Salam wa Raxmatullah.... I had a teacher in religious studies, he was what you could call a stern critic, when we finally got to Islam in the curriculum, he changed tactics, and suddenly for the fun of it started taking things out if its context. Taking certain ayahs and showing them to the class, not providing any explanation. You can all guess what issues he was en route for, a hint or better yet I’ll not let you guess, issues he wanted to raise was: women, equality and paradise. I couldn’t counter my teacher, though I am very fluent in the Swedish language, I just did not know how to give him the answer. He used to talk about why the quran when addressing the people used men as norm, when talking about rewards why were the men constantly mentioned, etc etc. You can understand what the lack of knowledge of your own religion can do to you, when confronted by issues pertaining to it. I was 17, I have learned a great deal since. Well my intention was not to enter this debate, nor do I hold my self in a position to answer and proof anything to anyone, rather I can only speak on matters that I know. Yet what I wanted to draw to this debate is really one important thing, maybe some of you’ve thought about it maybe others haven’t. Anyway, back to my religious studies teacher in college. He once mentioned, what his professor in religious studies at Uppsala university, told him. In Pakistan the professor said, the Muslims, use small bamboo sticks (ul) very light ones (lacking better description) and explicitly hit their mentally handicapped whenever they contravene. I wanted to object I had so much to tell him man, what a lousy cheap shot I really wanted to tell him off for over and over again portraying Islam as a religion lacking humility, justice etc, but I opened my mouth just to close it again. He said, my professor asked me, are we here in Sweden doing better? We leave ours behind closed doorslike inmates , drugging them down even making them worse and we just forget about them. I guess you are all trying to figure out, what is this mad girl talking about, well, all I want to say is, this professor highlighted a very significant point, especially when dealing with things that’s from another definite point opposite to what one is self. He said in order to keep a clean, nice dialogue on subjects such as faith; we mustn’t get in with our own gear leave it at the door step, start clean, and see where it leads you. Whatever happens in this discussion, I believe one thing; a Muslim believer only after having tasted faith longs to share it with his brethren. I honestly believe it should not be a matter of proving just to win in a logical rhetorical debate, rather it should be on the matter of whishing for a fellow human being to embrace that which one has embraced willingly with love. May Allah guide us all/aamiin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Didi Kong Posted May 3, 2006 I don't understand why Sheikh Nur has taken it upon himself to engage in a dialogue with the atheists and the agnostics considering the fact that he doesn't pay homage to western intellectual chauvinism and won't be employing key concepts like rationalism, skepticism, objectivity, logic etc. Like I said before if there are no common grounds people cannot engage in meaningful dialogues. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khalaf Posted May 3, 2006 Who cares about atheists? Why does anyone bother with them? Atheism is the very hieght, the apogee, of human ego and anyone who subscribes to that is beyond the pale. --Why? because this is a matter of Nar and Al-Jannah. My question to those who say there is no God: before you came to this conclusion what was your understanding level of Al-Islam, have you studied the Quran, what did you take from the Quran if you did study it and why do u think there is no God? Please explain your beliefs more clearly. Instead of I can’t see it therefore can’t belief in it…doesn’t fit my rational reasoning….or religious evidence is unconvincing. Why Why, Why? Where is other party? Come on its almost summer break Salaamun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
