MOVE THE CAPITAL FROM MOGADISHU?

[xiinfaniin]

@Olol you represent those inhabitants on these forums..

 

Horn, Only if you said looters instead of inhabitants so it could still bear the negative connotation it deserves! But (I suppose) one ought (some times) be generous enough to keep the civility of the discussion and graciously accommodating to other’s raving talk.

 

But that’s not why I came back to this interesting discussion. To put these issues (injustices) in perspective so we can all (another charitable word) establish correct paradigm from which we can formulate our political (oh, what I am thinking?) views is. Politics (as I know it) are the affairs of organized society: the science of winning and holding control of a government (to be precise). It’s also the art of effecting influences and tacitly guiding governmental policies. Somali politics is no different than that of other societies; it’s just little unregulated, have no moral codes, no beliefs, and it’s profoundly influenced by our clannish settings! These are all excusable in the light of fifteen years of civil war, one may argue. It’s expected that the legacy of civil war would profoundly change the psychic of our thinking (one may squabble) and permanently damage our consciousness (dammiir)! But hey, are we not first Muslims? Do we not have social values that are derived from our Islamic creed? Do the ends (bringing justice in restoring political equilibrium) justify the means (committing horrible transgressions in gross proportion)? Is it not a sheer intellectual dishonesty for any one to defend loots (past or present)?

 

There lie the propping questions that make you shiver to your core given the political actualities on the ground. I have indeed lost many battles (decisive ones) in the last four years. The Somali skirmishes were not one of them. They were battles (the ones I lost were) that my side was supposed to win (I thought) but lost! They took place in far corners of the globe; in Afghanistan I have turned off the TV when the Sheikh’s hiding hole emitted smoldering smoke as a result of merciless hit; in Iraq I have mourned with the orphans and the widows as I’ve watched them suffer; in Chechnya I have grieved with them as they’re crashed with that Russian tank. There’re causes that I have virtually fought for but miserably lost. My passionate about those issues outweigh any thing else (as zealous as I sound in the positions I take). That in mind, I can do no other but to point out the crux of Somali civil war. It’s not about sharing seats, it’s not about allocation of the presidency, and neither it’s choosing the Prime Minister. No it aint that at all! If it were the old man wouldn’t have received that overwhelming majority, don’t ya say? It’s (the root cause is) the lack of remedy to the gross injustices committed during and before the civil war. Period.

 

Here is where the bravery and courage is needed; to admit the mistakes and acknowledge their significance.

 

Intaa ha noo joogto.

[wind.talker]

somehow I knew someone would pick up the torch and put an emphasize on the Duqa's all prophetic phrase. Now tell me why I had marked you as that

torch bearer

?

 

Kismaayo is an international city and will stay as such. :cool:

Maybe because you're a psychic. On a serious note, Kismaayo is an international city - that, I don't argue about. BUT, I will never - in 1 or 50 lifetimes - accept a military presence in Kismaayo of the very men (USC militias) many people died protecting the city from, and our Col Hiiraale has invited into the city. I do realize their presence is a matter of temporary political adjustment, but it irks the living daylights out of me that Hiiraale still believes he needs such men in Kismaayo. He'll be my hero the day he tells USC militias to evacuate the Jubba Valley. Until then, he'll remain nothing but a man who doesn't trust in his own abilities (for he needs the help of others).

 

P.S. I noticed you changed where you're from. I believe (if I'm not mistaken) it used to say Caabudwaaq. Why the sudden change to Wardheer? Does it have anything to do with the recent outbreak of violence in that region of Somali Galbeed between Caabudwaaq-allied & Puntland-allied kinfolk? And how does claiming it on SOL further promote the agenda of Reer Caabudwaaq in the Wardheer region?

 

If there is (was) a caste system in place among Somali society and your clan was at the top of the hierarchy then you´ll have to enlight us about where it exixted and why

n please explain for all those refugees in the Kenyan camps that their place in the hierarchy is

temporarily

overtaken.

So, for something to be temporarily overtaken, it must've existed, correct? The sad thing is that niyadaad ka wada dhimateen. You just proved my point that such a hierarchy - while not as obvious and discriminatory as the Indian caste system - did exist in Somalia. Isn't that the reason many staunch pro-USC elements repeatedly claim to have "liberated" homes and properties in Muqdisho and surrounding areas?

 

As far as the refugee comment I'm sooo angry dude!

[OLOL]

Hornafrik - adoo raali ah, maxaa ka wadaa " Olol you represent those inhabitants on these forums " ma fahmin arintaas iigu soo celi - soomaalida waxeey tiraahdaa Damiin Far Waaweyn Aa Wax Loogu dhigaa "

 

Hadaad ula jeedid dadka guryaha dad islaameed ku jira ama ku dhashay aa ka mid tahay - saaxiib waa ku qaldan tahay. Aniga Xamar ab ka ab ma u dhalan - awoowgeeygii shanaad ama lixaad aa ka soo gudbay xagaas iyo badda cas - laakiin ku milmay dhaqanka iyo dadka xamar dega dabeecadoodana leh. Dhinaca hooyana dhiig ahaan waaye. guryahaan iyo dhismayashaan ku leenahayna si xalaal ah aan ku dhisanay cid naga xoogtayna ma leh ama nagu xadgudubtay ma leh. xamar waxaan ka soo tagay 1987 waxaana ku laabtay afar jeer intaas ka dib. markii iigu danbeeysay august 2004, waa is bedeshay, xamarkii hore waa baaba'ay waxaana dhismay xamar cusub. dad cusub oo aad u maleeysid ineeyba kaa leeyihiin oo kaa xigaan meesha aa jooga. adigana dan kaama leh, yaa tahay iyo intee u socotaana wax ku dhahaayo ma arkeeysid hadaadan dad adi iska soocin- markaas aan tagay waa la iga lacag badnaa, la iga qurux badnaa, la iga nolol fiicnaa.

 

dhismaayasha dawladda waxaa deganaa dad masaakiin ah oo ka soo bara kacay baadiyo abaar darteed. magaaladana waxaa u maleeysaa in qof walba uu iskiis u masquulsan yahay kuna taagan tahay. marka qof kuu xoog leh ma leh.

 

dadka qasab maahin kuligood ineey xamar degaan ama ku laabtaan. soomaaliya waa weyn tahay waana nagu wada filan tahay. waxeeyna ku fiicnaan laheeyd in la dago magaalooyinka yar yar si loo hormariyo degaanadaas? xamar waxaa dadkoo dhan keenay wax kale maaheen - dawladihii dalka soo maamulay waxeey wax kasta oo adeeg bulsho ah ka dhiseen xamar meeshii eey magaalooyinka kale u dhisi lahaayeen isbitaalo, iskoolal, macahadyo kale, wax kasta xamar aa laga dhisay.

 

Dagaalkii sokeeye aana dudumiyay macadyadaas iyo adeegyadaas bulsho. marka wax xamar loogu soo cararaa ma arko - magaalooyinkii nabadda ah ee dagaalki ehelka ka badbaaday sida boosaaso iyo kuwii dib dadka degaanka u dhashay dhisteen sida hargeysa ayaaba ka wanaagsan in xooga la saaro oo la dego oo la dhisto.

 

waxaa loo baahan yahay maskax cusub, fikir cusub.

 

qofka degan milwaukee, chicago waxuu uga baahan yahay ma leh. saas ineey noqoto waaye Somalia.

 

ninka xamar guri aan xalaal aheeyn ku jira koleeytaba waa iska dhiibi doonaa waqtigii eey noqoto. ninkii raba inuu ku noolaado magaaladaas oo xalaal quudata ahna wax ka xiga ma leh.

 

hishiiska soomaali waxuu ku imaan karaa iyado soomaali dhexdeeda ka hishiiso. amxaaro ma hishiisiin karto. ciidan shisheeye soomaalia wax ma ka qaban karo. ragga dagaal oogayaasha ah ee barlamaanka iyo dawladda wada waa in lagu qasbaa ineey iyaga is hor fariistaan. cid kaligeed teeda meel marsan karto ma leh. markii kuwaas naga hishiiyaan oo dagaal ooge danbe uusan soo bixin, cbdulaahi waa 80 jir, muuse, caato iyo yalaxoowna waa ka daba socdaan - shanta sano ee ku meel gaarka ah lee iiga ugu eg tahay, marka intii waqtigooda dhamaanaayo ayaga hala hishiisiiyo -

naga dhaafa ciidan baaska iyo la safashada kooxahaas nairobi iyo kuwa xamar.

 

 

ilaah haduu ka dhigo, soomaaliya waxeey noqon doontaa wadan xaga dimuqraadiyada iyo ganacsiga xorta ah afrika ugu horeeyn doono 10 sano oo hadda soo socoto- laakiin tan ina yeey iyo geedi wataan hadii la raaco -sidii hore aa lagu jiraa, dagaal qabiili ah iyo colaad sokeeye iyo burbur iyo kala tag soomaaliyeed.

 

shariifka ha la maqlo - kun shariifna ilaah ha na siiyo. aamiin dhaha hee

AF SOOMAALIGA aaba ka fiican ma is tiri? yaa yiri af ingiriis kuli yoom halagu kalaamo?

[xiinfaniin]

Nin hungiri badnaa baa waxa la yiri Maroodigan dhaqo oo caanaha ka maal. Waxaa lagu xirey inuusan gujeyn naasaha maroodiga oo uusan caano aan ku jirin ka raadin. Wixii Alle kaa siiyo ka manaafacso baa lagula taliyey. Ninkii iimaanka la'aa waxaa la wariyey inuusan dheg jalaq usiin wixii waano loo sheegay. Gujjo ayyuu kala daalay Maroodigu maalka loogu keenay!

 

Doqon nasiib-darran buu ahaaye, heshiiskii uu ka baxay sharciggiisii baa lagu qaaday. Maroodigii waa lagala noqday. Halkaasuu caanihii ku waayey. Iimaan darraa calaf seejisey!

 

Asagoo tixraacayaa taariikdaas qolona u duur-xulaya buu Ayyax maxamed Dhawre (abwaankii caanka ka ahaa carriga Ciid & Hawd) aakhirkii aftamaadkii(late 1940s)wuxuu ku daray gabaygiisa taarikhiga ahaa dhowr tixood oo arrintaas ku saabsan:

 

Qalanjada Maroodiga ninkii waayo lagu qeybshey

Oo toban haruub oo qar-jaran eebe kaga quudshey

Tolankiyo qamuunyada ninkii labadabow quuray

Oo qaar-danbeedkiyo candhada feerka ka qaaday

Oo caanuhuu qubay ilmadu qoysey baad noqone!

 

Let Farah & Baashe decipher this!

[Gabbal]

P.S. I noticed you changed where you're from. I believe (if I'm not mistaken) it used to say Caabudwaaq. Why the sudden change to Wardheer? Does it have anything to do with the recent outbreak of violence in that region of Somali Galbeed between Caabudwaaq-allied & Puntland-allied kinfolk? And how does claiming it on SOL further promote the agenda of Reer Caabudwaaq in the Wardheer region?

That would be something in it itself wouldn't it? Sxb geelaheena baa degmada Cabudwaq iminka daaqa maahaane, fir iyo farcanbo ragaan ka dhashay waa reer Etoopiya. Wardheer region to be exact; my mother was born in Gelaadi and her family is originally from there and upper Hawd/Sool region area, my father was born in Shilaabo though his family is originally from Qabri Dahare.

 

 

Horn, Only if you said looters instead of inhabitants so it could still bear the negative connotation it deserves! But (I suppose) one ought (some times) be generous enough to keep the civility of the discussion and graciously accommodating to other’s raving talk.

Civility goes a long way in any discussion Xiinfaniin. I had the pleasure of learning how to employ it. :cool:

 

Hornafrik - adoo raali ah, maxaa ka wadaa " Olol you represent those inhabitants on these forums " ma fahmin arintaas iigu soo celi..guryahaan iyo dhismayashaan ku leenahayna si xalaal ah aan ku dhisanay cid naga xoogtayna ma leh ama nagu xadgudubtay ma leh

With all due respect, representing those inhabitants doesn't necesarily mean you took part in any illegal activities. Is daji sxb you're doing the people of Muqdisho a disservice.

 

dadka qasab maahin kuligood ineey xamar degaan ama ku laabtaan. soomaaliya waa weyn tahay waana nagu wada filan tahay. waxeeyna ku fiicnaan laheeyd in la dago magaalooyinka yar yar si loo hormariyo degaanadaas?

Olol caadi baa kuula daqmayay, but that is the most hypocritical statement I have seen in a while. You are speaking about democracy in your post, while throughly managing to destroy its whole ideals. Have you ever heard of the tenent of democracy known as the freedom to choose?. Cid kasto meesha guri ka taagato ayagee u taal as long as it is within the limits of legality.

 

I'm not insulting the city of Mogadishu and I do understand the difficult situation concerning real estate, but as I understand that part of the equation you need to understand the other side. There are orphans living in our house, so by the might of Allah waan u daaynay. Ma quurno inaan agoon meel ka kacsano, however there are others who aren't so understanding. What about those people? What would the reconciliation you speak of do for them if their houses are occupied?

 

See there is a difference between you and I, Olol. Between us, we don't have a solution, but I am willing to understand the other side's situation while you are deliberately ignoring it.

 

P.S I'm not a very good judge of character at times, but you sound very Somali to me, without any "Eritrean" or ajnabi blood in you.

[Gabbal]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

[QB] Ayyax maxamed Dhawre (abwaankii caanka ka ahaa carriga Ciid & Hawd)QUOTE]

 

Funny thing is Ayax became stricken in love with my great-grandmother after he came to Cabudwaq. I'm told the story of how he use to express his love to my great-grandmother is told through out the Mudug desert. Poor guy, the love was not mutual or I would not be here.

[Rahima]

All problems would be solved if we had a functioning just government (which although I personally am starting to loose hope, is not all gone yet). This issue of stolen property whilst it exists and is wrong, is so over-exaggerated, like Baashi said it is a few greedy men, but inshallah will subside as we progress.

 

These men will be swept with the wind. This concept of painting it as a tribal identity (which some here are doing indirectly) is disgusting and full of prejudice. These “few greedy men†cause more of a problem to their own tribesmen than others.

 

Justifying it with where it begun doesn’t make it right. Likewise limiting these phenomena to the corner of one tribe (because most Somali tribes, in different forms partook in the evil of Somalia) is prejudice and does not make it right. Looting and killing is not limited to one tribe or Mogadishu. At one time or another most did it or are still doing it.

 

It is wrong for the government to allow to be held hostage by these people. There are many good, decent, hard-working men and women who reside in Mogadishu rightfully and who are willing to work with the government and establish peace. It just so happens because Somali politics is dirty and so qabiil orientated that generally the wicked of every tribe are selected. I know for a fact that the MPs from Southern Mudug/Galgadud are not the good people from that region/tribe and are not looked upon by their clansmen with hope. They are the people who for example held their own clansmen hostage when they reused to pay the Qaaraan for the war that occurred in Hobyo. Therefore what can one expect from these people? If this government wants to succeed in Mogadishu they need to get on board the good people of the city, whilst not alienating the evil (so as to curb their havoc). This government needs to support these good people for they are the only ones who can truly make a difference. Asking people like Caato to represent his tribe is plain ********* for he does not care for their welfare, just like it can be argued that CY does not truly care for his tribesmen. These men (warlords turned MPs and looters) are out for their own gain, so at times I wonder what they can achieve besides increase the dough in their bank accounts. Sadly this is the case, we cannot do much about it, but we can be selective about what we choose our mentality to be. These warlords and thugs at the isbaaro do not represent their tribe nor do they represent Mogadishu.

 

Basically we know where tribal prejudice and discrimination has gotten us, making broad general degrading remarks targeted at a particular tribe is doing just that.

[Rahima]

BUT, I will never - in 1 or 50 lifetimes - accept a military presence in Kismaayo of the very men (USC militias) many people died protecting the city from, and our Col Hiiraale has invited into the city. I do realize their presence is a matter of temporary political adjustment, but it irks the living daylights out of me that Hiiraale still believes he needs such men in Kismaayo. He'll be my hero the day he tells USC militias to evacuate the Jubba Valley.

That’s interesting wind. Going by how it sounds, you are saying that one half of this alliance is acceptable so long as they drop the other half, and the reason for this is that one hails from Clan X whilst the other is an “outsiderâ€. I mean what makes the actions of one right and not the other when basically they are doing the exact same thing? I’ll admit, I don’t know much about this, but I’m just going by what you wrote. It is either one of two, I misunderstood and you mean something else, or one group is justified because of their clan whilst the other is not.

 

Reer Kismaayo as I am aware have not only been effected by the USC but also many others like Morgan (at different stages). I mean I don’t understand how you can accept one group of wrongdoers whilst as you say never in 1 or 50 lifetimes accept the other?

 

You either condemn all or …

 

I hope I am wrong; I don’t take you (going by your posts) as the type to judge on such backward terms.

[Sky]

hornafrique made a good point. what good will it do to kick out the wife and kids of a semi-illiterate looter from south mudug, galguduud who were raised and maybe born in that house in that long period. i doubt that will stop most rational thinking ppl of reclaiming their property though(most who have a family to think about of their own). this is most probably the most difficult task of the somali ppl to solve this problem of looted property. it is much more serious than some like to portray with some evilminded men. we are talking about half of the original population of muqdisho replaced with primitive, backward ppl from the baadiya.

 

Reer Kismaayo as I am aware have not only been effected by the USC but also many others like Morgan (at different stages). I mean I don’t understand how you can accept one group of wrongdoers whilst as you say never in 1 or 50 lifetimes accept the other?

rahima, you are totally right both halves of the socalled jubba valley alliance are potáto potató to me. but this jva group is different than morgan. since the snf and usc united their strenghts to kick the spm morgan faction out in 1999. all developmental organisations immedeately left the city, some even moving directly to puntland for goodness sake. when morgan ruled thoughout the 90s, ppl were not evicted from their property, yet the jva crew made a large part of the inhabitants whom control the bulk of the property (80%-90% wouldnt be far-fetched) flee the city immedeately and ended up ultimately in the US after long periods of surviving in a kenyan refugee camp. the crimes that have been done by morgan was taking bantu farms forcefully for the banana production business with italian and american banana multi-nationals.

[Xoogsade]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

Here is where the bravery and courage is needed; to admit the mistakes and acknowledge their significance.

 

Intaa ha noo joogto.

I think You want more than that according to your discussions. Admission of mistakes and acknowledging their significance isn't that difficult. The difficulty many from your side has is holding on to the past and trying to redraw EVERYTHING back as they were which is very impossible. Now, when I say this, I don't mean someone keeps a home he doesn't own, but it means that you need to draw the line and have a limit in what you can ask for at this moment.

 

1- You own few meters of land in a city, so that is what you own, not a whole town. 2- You have no say who lives in town or who doesn't. 3- Your primary objective should be peace and co-existence with others and not aspiring to over-power them as that mentality represents what destroyed the country to begin with. Others will take a hardline too. 4- Know that everyone cares about who he is and won't accept from any somali person to tamper with it orally or otherwise. This sentiment is very corrosive and it is what blinds many Somalis to do or accept what is right. 6- If you say "US" others will say "WE".

 

I think the best solution for Somalis is to revisit their faith and tell the truth about it. Wixii intaa ka soo harey waqtilee dhumaaya and the status-quo will remain as long as somalis practice tribalism and put their weight behind the men in leadership positions today who are nothing but manisfestation of Somali society's putrid double standards, on one side, wishing good and pleasant things to come towards them, and on the other, sticking to what they are supposed to disbelief.

 

PS: BTW, People alleged to have power in Kismayo city from A/Qasim's side I think is far fetched. They are there as business enterprise and depend on their political allies. They are there for the port. They amount to few wealthy individuals with their armed escorts who come into town to unload ships and escort goods out of town after they pay taxes to Big Shot Hiiraale as I heard. I honestly haven't heard many people from such corner(A/Q's) settling town. If there are people who are building that town, it is people like you(and claim the city by tribal connections) who live in the west and send money to allocate a house there for their future. Did you know it is more expensive to build a house in Kismayo than it is in Xamar nowadays? Guys like you poured money into town, a town they haven't heard of untill few years ago.

[Sky]

Now, when I say this, I don't mean someone keeps a home he doesn't own,

but it means that you need to draw the line and have a limit in what you can ask for at this moment.

which ultimately leads back to meaning, someone keeps a home he doesnt own, because the genuine proprietor is being selfish and damaging to the reconciliation if he/she claims its property back. so those ppl that cant get a hold onto their property need to know their place and limit their expectations.

 

 

what drives the sense of fear of reer usc of losing its shortlived hegemony over the once glorious capital city?

[Xoogsade]

Wey SKY, Did you honestly understand what that sentence meant? The meaning is found right after that sentence in the numbered section. Look saxib, I and my Father are strangers to that town today. It is overtaken by people from outside and they are too wealthy and very prominent. It is foolish to entertain things go back the way they were. That can never happen. Step-by-step solution is the way to go. First government, then justice for those hurt. Don't ask for more than necessary or beyond what you require of your right. Normalcy should be gradual process not a one time swoop based on sentimentality. That will exacerbate things. Guys like bro Xiin are so excited about the prospect of victory(since they have us vr them mentality) they forget they are not out of the woods yet. Caqliyaa loo baahan yahay.

 

Besides, I would prefer my old neighbours and the familiar faces I grew up with. Drastic changes happened and I can't honestly say many are living on Xaaram just because they settled town and built their own homes. I can dispute with those who took what doesn't belong to them, but the rest have the right to live if they are law-abiding saxib. To xiin, that doesn't fly. The saga boils down to one thing, Victory or nothing LOL. And that is difficult to attain today.

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by wind.talker:

So, for something to be

temporarily

overtaken, it must've existed, correct? The sad thing is that

niyadaad ka wada dhimateen.

You just proved my point that such a hierarchy - while not as obvious and discriminatory as the Indian caste system - did exist in Somalia. Isn't that the reason many staunch pro-USC elements repeatedly claim to have "liberated" homes and properties in Muqdisho and surrounding areas?

 

As far as the refugee comment

I'm sooo angry dude!

Wind.Talker.. On the contrary dear , It´s obvious that it is you who is suffering from nonexistent nostalgia .

 

I Do understand your personal saddness , about what the USC army did to you and your family , but still i expect you to keep some balls and call a stone a stone.

The USC army is the one behind the fall of the old regime.( or was it SSDF or SNM )

they liberated the ppl from tyrany

 

So next time you wanna highten your clan over the other Somalia clans try to make it spicey.

 

I´m really sorry for you .. i was expecting that you were a more respectable contender.

 

"My milkshake *** are better than yours"

 

Is that all?

Next time you gonna tell me the Barber in Bosaso is better than the one in Km 4 , or

The old lady that sells " caw " is of higher caste than the "jeeble" lady in South Galcaio.

 

P/S ..

the refugee comment was there JUST to make you realize that your caste brup was way too LAME

 

My heart goes for all the victims in the somali civil war .

 

This thread have had more than it´s share of attention.

 

• The topic was abandoned after the 3rd post
• Bashi´s intrest in "looters" took over
• Wind.Talker wrapped the whole thing with a

  stinking diaper

[Jamster]

Xoogsade "Now, when I say this, I don't mean someone keeps a home he doesn't own, but it means that you need to draw the line and have a limit in what you can ask for at this moment .

 

So, what does that mean. If I am a refugee living under a Galool tree in some god forsaken foreign land; the men who had stolen my property should not be expected to surrender my stolen property; what; because of the common good-- which this means in reality is that; mate if you want peace then you should relenquish your claim to your propert!!!!!

 

Is that what you are saying? If not, what is this limitation you speak of my good brother?

[xiinfaniin]

So, what does that mean. If I am a refugee living under a Galool tree in some god forsaken foreign land; the men who had stolen my property should not be expected to surrender my stolen property; what; because of the common good-- which this means in reality is that; mate if you want peace then you should relenquish your claim to your propert!!!!!

 

Is that what you are saying? If not, what is this limitation you speak of my good brother?

 

 

A good question that could reveal how profound the curse of Xaraam affected the innate thinking of our fellow nomad!