Hicky Harmony

[Khalaf]

Originally posted by Socod_badne:

You could not be more wrong about science. Science is about formulating hypothesis and stating in the hypothesis what sort of evidence will verify or falsify the claims of your hypothesis. And then you conduct an experiment with the intent of determining whether your hypothesis is right or wrong.

Granted, science can broadly defined as knowledge about the material universe, described as accurately as possible by whom?, yes the human mind. Scientific research therefore is the attempt to obtain this knowledge (as far as can be possible), and a scientific truth or fact is the result of this research.

 

Science is about truth and truth has nothing to do with your

understanding

or

perspective

.

Did it not occur to you that scientists can have their own agenda’s, influenced by their own philosophies? And through mass introduction, or simple manipulation of findings it can be dressed up as “truth”? The success of the theory of evolution the counter stone of Biology comes to mind, but that’s a whole different ball game. Anyway science is not about truth because science is not ultimate, hence new theories develop and old theories are replaced that were once held as “scientific facts” in the circle of academia, the task of science however is to bring people closer and closer to an objective truth.

 

If truth (interchangeable with knowledge) was about human

perspective

, how would we know truth since we got literally billions of competing human

perspective/understanding

?

Science and the continuousness of scientific research to reach scientific facts is an endeavor of the human mind, therefore though it can have profound positive impact as well as negative, it is unable to explain the true nature of things of man (his existence, purpose ect) and the material universe in which he dwells, because as you say:

 

"We simply can't, hence why science is adamant on being ostensive. "

 

Which basically means the “truth” is what you see and know, but a slight problem arises since human capabilities are indeed very limited as the Noble Quran says:

 

“And of Knowledge you have been given only a little.”

 

Therefore the challenge of the Quran a book of guidance which provides us the information of the true nature of things, nor conflicts with the material universe remains, and its up to man to either benefit from it, or be the master of his own demise.

 

 

and dont scientific truths change continuously?

No, I don't think so. But you can name few scientific truths that changed to persuade me otherwise. [/QB]

The point was science is an ongoing process-theories change, new theories are developed its an ongoing process which in turn is heavily influenced by many factors such as the dominate ideas of the current times/society/government/multinational companies ect. Scientists for example held views in which they considered as scientific truths (facts), but Einstein’s revolutionary breath through in relativity changed what was established as scientific truths in the circles of academia during that period of time. You may google, or check out books like The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, to give you more insight, but the general fact stands science is an ongoing process.

[Cara.]

Granted, science can broadly defined as knowledge about the material universe, described as accurately as possible by whom?, yes the human mind. Scientific research therefore is the attempt to obtain this knowledge (as far as can be possible), and a scientific truth or fact is the result of this research.

The human mind is the only faculty that we have for obtaining knowledge about the world. Everything, whether written in a holy book or observed about the natural world, can only be filtered through human reasoning. Unless you can routinely set aside your "human mind" and pull on another kind of mind to gain knowledge, your charge that scientific knowledge is deficient (because its truth as perceived by humans) makes no sense.

[Khalaf]

^^^^Reread what I wrote Cara and maybe it would make more sense. As you can see i was addressing Caano’s earlier comments, therefore the point was science- material science in this essence which severs all connection with a Higher Power (namely Allah Most High) falls short in explaining the true nature of things because human capacities are indeed very limited as SB used the word ostensive what u see is what is truth......., Thus my conclusion was the Quran is the guide, much like the map to a traveler to provide the roadmap in order to make sense of our universe and beyond, but with no roadmap then the travaler is indeed confused and rather lost, he may solve pieces of the puzzle but not the entire puzzle.

 

The Quran and Modern Science

[Johnny B]

Khalaf, your 2nd attempt to personlize the subject matter under discussion by futile personal assaults is noted but ignored. by Skipping the fatigue of high irritablity, you'd be better off keeping your petulant feelings to yourself,as it doesen't least intrest me or the gallery,in the meantime, articulating ones point of view as reasonable as possible is the desireable manner, unless i'm taking the jungle out of the monkey here, as i can only take the monkey out of the jungle, i'm left with no option but to decline your offer to personlize the subject matter and beat my chest.speaking so, as it were.

 

Before i start pinpointing the blabber in your bungling, allow me to state the otherwise obvious to you, namely, the Islamic world's galorious history regarding sciene has already been covered, what you needed to address was and still is the reason behind almost ten centuries of scientific draught in the Muslim world,and preferably share the scientific miracles that the charlatans whom you prefectly agree with, extract from the Quran, be it may as simple as an Asprin verse.

 

And the science which relies solely upon the human perspective ( indeed very limited, filled with contradictions, and changing all the time) is unable to provide an insight or understanding about the true nature of things nor provide solutions to the many crisis faced by human kind.

To be perfectly honest, i find it strange and i've a good reason to think that i'm not alone, that a person who believes that a woman can get pregnant without the sperms of male human-beeing and give birth to a babyboy, would adopt such a position of superiority towards another person of different stance, and utter such mawkishly rubbish against science whose simple defination he so patently misunderstands. your persumptions are such your meager rataionality fails you more often than you could afford.

 

Furthermore this Quran (a “medieval book” with fake tales perhaps according to the likes of JB) contains information on scientific facts which are in agreement with the recent scientific findings.

Such are your scientific facts that you've two (not three or four) not only invisble but weightless, ourdorless and soundless beeings on your shoulders recording what you do, and in no way will you let that "Truth" of yours be tested or verified.

 

Is not the human mind and understanding of nature ect very limited?

That may so be, but by producing the supernatural to the human mind you can only increase that limit.

 

It is but natural that a person who hallucinates to have the absolute correct answers a number of times everyday cannot but mawkishly think that he actually has the absolute correct answers.

if we contrast that with the answers offered by science on so many different issues, we have ample reason to accept the scientific answers.

[Zafir]

Sophisticated JB, your meager jab at northerner was noted and couldn’t be ignored, it's the fact perhaps, that you're a man of science at best that's understatement, or your use the word [understatement] as much as the other JB's ( ) is an understatement. Perhaps, the fact that I sometimes get the urge to toss a grenade at the understatement warehouse is, it self an understatement. Sorry for getting sidetracked, Where was I? Oh yeah, sophisticated or was it sophistication? Oh no actually, it’s neither now.

 

Secondly, going by your last post, the reality that guides and directs the functioning of the world with regularity and orderliness possess aim, purpose, purport, and will that can’t be denied, it can’t be supposed that ceaseless process of action and reaction advances in a fixed direction without the intervention and supervision of greater intelligence wallaal.

 

Ps: you will always remain as my mirror dede in these corners, do continue.

[Centurion]

This, if anything reveals the weakness of science in the Muslim-world.

Today's reality is that Muslim nations don't produce any scientific or technological advancements worth mentioning,

wonder why?.

 

Your take !!

So, you highlight the well known fact that the 'Muslim world' is lacking, and has been for more than a century when it comes to Science and Technology.

Rather than baiting us into impulsively defending Islam, and then ridiculing attempts to argue against the notion that Islam somehow doesn’t harmonise with Science, why don’t you be so bold as to expand on what you think is the reason?

 

 

Whilst sifting through your mildly insulting prose, I came across this

 

One can't help but correlate the reason why Muslim nations don't contribute much and the ability of individuals who labor under oppressive social milieus where one is expected (demanded)to be intellectually thankful and not question as that would degrade his "a must have highest" degree of Faith.

So Muslims do not get involved in Science, for fear of incompatibility, and because they would feel guilty for questioning all that is around us.

You are assuming that Science in essence requires the questioning of the existence of a Creator, as if its goal is to disprove it. Atheists would like it so, but Muslims, and all those who believe in a greater Power believe that Science proves the existence of such a Being. So in actual fact, Muslims would encourage scientific advancement, to bring to light more reasons for why God must exist.

 

You also imply that there is a mass disregard for Science - apparently because the majority of Muslims unquestioningly accept the words of religion, and that consequently millions of Muslims look disfavorably on the intellectual probing of scientific research as somehow unnecessary.

 

Characteristic of such a social ‘phenonema’ would be a clear unbalance of development amongst the numerous branches of Science; Mathematics isn’t a ‘threat’ to Islam – so it follows logically that from the 100 or so Muslim nations, several should be world leaders in this field, but they aren’t.

 

The fact is that Muslim nations are behind in Knowledge, not just in the Science which you claim they perceive as threatening.

 

Now the question is why, and is religion to blame?

It can’t be, because Islam explicitly encourages the seeking of knowledge, the Prophet SAW said

 

“Seeking knowledge is compulsory on every Muslim.”

 

“Wisdom is the lost property of the believer.”

 

“Whoever follows a path seeking knowledge, Allah will make his path to paradise easy.”

 

 

And with this in mind, the Muslim world in its Golden era, became the beacon of Scientific and technological advancement, I do not need to recount its epic scale, nor mention any names.

 

It remains then, that there must be other explanations.

The lack of scientific research in the Muslim world today, is a direct consequence of the social, political and economical decline of the Muslim world.

 

The decline of the Muslim world in the last 100-150 years was a result of diverse internal and external forces. The rapid rise of the Western World, economically, militarily and socially hastened the demise of the Ottoman Empire - perceived by many the last Muslim superpower.

 

Colonialism and other forms of foreign subjugation became common place in the Muslim world; with difficulty can one name a Muslim nation which hasn't endured European imperialism.

I hope I don't need to explain why colonialism resulted in Muslim nations lagging behind in almost every department.

 

Rarely does a country transition smoothly from Colonialism to effective self government; indeed independence gives rise to a multitude of social problems, obstacles which make scientific research not a priority to say the least.

 

Issues such as lack of investment into education, ethnic conflicts, wars and frequent regime change have beset many Muslim nations post independence, and consequently they are behind in many areas, they aren't amongst the 20 wealthiest nations in the world, and there isn't even a single Muslim university in the top 500 universities in the world.

 

 

The Muslim world is trailing economically, scientifically and technologically.

Less than a dozen dodgy scholars are not the reason why. Nor (To the contrary of some ridiculous claims being bandied about), do most Muslims shy away from education or Science, they simply lack the opportunities to study in their un/less developed countries, which lack the proper investment and hence the proper infrastructure to produce scientific and technological research of international standard.

[Khalaf]

^^^^The brother above touched on the points of the Islamic world and science beautifully wouldn’t you say JB? Therefore Ill make it short and simple for Mr. JB, though I doubt he would bring any answers other then usual blabbers of angles, deities and what not, to either these questions which Ill ask or the points raised by the brother above. Here we go:

 

 

To Mr. JB:

 

1. Where did the Quran come from? Who wrote the Quran in your opinion?

 

Although we Muslims believe the Qu’ran is a guidance to mankind, not a merely science book to look for scientific facts, however I ask you this: since you JB on the one hand would describe the Quran as a medieval book devoid of any reason or scientific answers about the universe, but yet on the other you would gladly accept scientific answers mind you made by advanced technology in modern times. Therefore how do you explain a book nearly 1,500 years ago that came in remote part of the world completely separated from any civilization, or advanced knowledge ect yet contains scientific facts. Here are just several:

 

Quran says life originated from water (21:20), the universe was in the shape of a fiery gas (41:11), Matter is made of minute particles (10:62), the Embryo (39:6), the barrier between the fresh water and salt water (Quran, 55:19-20)....... check out more info

 

That’s more then the lone “aspirin verse” you asked JB. Answer the question masa keep dancing as you are good at sxb.

 

That may so be, but by producing the supernatural to the human mind you can only increase that limit.

Rubbish! Human beings are created with fitrah, its their natural disposition to be spiritual and to believe and hope in a Higher power, what is unnatural is unbelief-most of mankind has always been spiritual one way or another! But the arrogance of the ego self-sufficiency erodes this fitrah. This arrogance however quickly evades puuuuuuuuf disappears in snap when the human-being stricken with fear, grief, or a tragedy....that is why my friend if you were on a plane and it was about to crash your little "athiest" self would scream OOHHHHHHHHHHH GOD HElP me!

[N.O.R.F]

I see JB still hasnt managed to furnish us with anything yet in his latest to attempt.

 

A case of pick an article and run with it miyaa?

 

Oh well, do carry on,,,,,,,,,,

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Khalaf:

Granted, science can broadly defined as knowledge about the material universe, described as accurately as possible by whom?, yes the human mind.

 

Offering description of the world is one thing science does in an attempt to further our knowledge of the world. But that's only half of what science does. The other half, the more indispensable half, is producing the required empirical facts to support their theories/hypothesis. Without empirical facts, science wouldn't be science. After all, anyone can describe "material universe".

 

 

Did it not occur to you that scientists can have their own agenda’s, influenced by their own philosophies?

 

It happens all the time. Scientists are fallible human beings and when under pressure (from bosses) or tempted by fame to be gained by making a major finding or whatnot, scientists are liable to fudge the facts. But as we have seen time and gain, science is self-correcting and no bogus theory has withstood the scrutiny of the scientific method. Because the work of every published scientist is put through the wringer by his/her fellow peers who know what they're doing.

 

 

 

 

And through mass introduction, or simple manipulation of findings it can be dressed up as “truth”?

 

This betrays fundamental misconception of truth/facts. You're making the error of equating language and truth. Language can be manipulated to assert just about anything. At one point by pure application of language ppl believed the earth was flat. But what separates the wheat from the chafe is whether the assertion is issued in the ponderable. That is, the assertion must be measurable, falsifiable... allowing the skeptics the means to verify what others claim. Hence why science is progressive because it gives us the means to know truth from fiction.

 

 

Anyway science is not about truth because science is not ultimate,

 

What is not ultimate about gravity or laws of planetary motion.?

 

 

hence new theories develop and old theories are replaced that were once held as “scientific facts” in the circle of academia,

 

As I've wrote before I don't agree with this and if you wanna convince me, you gonna have to back your assertion with some historical references.

 

 

 

but Einstein’s revolutionary breath through in relativity changed what was established as scientific truths in the circles of academia during that period of time.

I suggest you read Einstein's theory then read the "established scientific truths" of the time and tell me how he "breathed through in". Einstein didn't disprove established scientific truths, he simply answered some outstanding questions, in particular those relating to relativistic motion. Take High School physics, you may be surprised to find the "established scientific truths" he breathed through in are still taught, side-be-side with his theories.