THE GREAT PRAYER EXPERIMENT

[Ms DD]

Salaam

 

Originally posted by Naden:

If an elevator cord is severed, it will plummet the full 10 floors thanks to gravity. If your sorry behind is in it, no amount of

God save me

will suspend the force of gravity in that 5'X5' spot in the world.

Naden, I dont understand your point above. Are you saying Allah is unable to go against gravity? How many times did i hear people survaving against the odds when a building collapsed or people drowned or in a airplane crash?

 

To JB

 

You really should have an understanding of Allah's attributes before discussing issues like this.

 

Before attempting to tackle this, it is necessary to understand the etiquette of Dua. For instance how can one limit Allah's ability in providing for everyone when He is the One created all of it?

 

We should also know that a Dua of a believer is never wasted. If our dua is not granted and we are patient then Allah (SWT) either turns away some evil that was going to inflict us, or Allah (SWT) reserves its rewards for the hereafter. On the day of judgement we see rewards for our Dua's not being answered on earth. See how futile this discussion is JB, when you dont even believe God, Jannah, day of Judgement? Nevertheless, let me continue..

So even if our Dua in not answered in this life we should hope for its rewards in the next.

Aisha radhiallaahu anha said, "No believer makes Dua and it is wasted. Either it is granted here in this world or deposited for him in the Hereafter as long as he does not get frustrated."

 

One of the main purposes of Dua is that we have an attentive heart towards Allah (SWT). That we turn to Him and acknowledge His Power. This however requires patience (hadith- You will responded to as long as you are not hasty, meaning that a person says, 'I have prayed and prayed and my prayer has not been answered), purity (hadith- while his food is unlawful, his drink is unlawful, his clothing his unlawful, and he is nourished unlawfully; how can he be answered) and sincerity (hadith- Make dua to Allah in a state that you are certain that your dua will be responded to, and know that Allah does not respond to a dua that originates from a negligent, inattentive heart). We need to call out to Allah (SWT) with a sincere heart, for verily Allah (SWT) does not accept any Dua made from a neglectful heart. How sincere is our heart?

 

As Muslims there is something very wrong when we believe our Duas won't be answered.

We do not turn to Allah in our times of need and instead put our trust, dependence and hopes on worldly things that we think will help us. Although these temporal things are the means through which our Duas can be answered, the root of our being should be trained automatically to turn to Allah and not anything or anyone else.

 

I will just finish the post with this:

 

Suhaib reported that Allah's Messenger said, "It is remarkable that everything turns out well for a believer while that applies only to a believer. If happiness befalls him, he gives thanks, and it turns out well for him, and if misfortune befalls him, he shows endurance (patience) and it turns out well for him. Sahih Muslim.

 

I understand this post may appear as preachy but in order to understand the conditions of making dua, one needs to go back to the scriptures.

[Johnny B]

DhucDhuc, [ much better than Cambarro],nice to have your two cents here.

When you say Before attempting to tackle this, it is necessary to understand the etiquette of Dua. For instance how can one limit Allah's ability in providing for everyone when He is the One created all of it?

You're slightly getting the wrong end of it, it is not about the limit of Allah's ability to deliver , it is about the limit of the number of parking places near the Mosque or the limit of the number of people whom we fall in love with etc etc.

 

No question God almighty can increase the number of the parking places or make us meat the doppelgangers of those we love , but how often does that happen?

 

btw, you diden't come across like a preacher!

[Cara.]

Will someone please start mentioning contingency tables? The whole discussion is moot otherwise

 

Northerner, isn't whether you make dua or not also written?

[xiinfaniin]

So fate and predestination has lastly become what JB, Cara, and to some degree Naden, have problem with miyaa? It’s one of the most intricate theological questions, to be sure, but it also has a well-founded traditional argument.

 

Answer in the affirmative, and we will be ready to beat you with a well-oiled divine stick that’s fated to pound you into shape…

[Pi]

^ LOL. Is that a threat? But I guess getting beat sideways with a divine stick can't be so bad. Must be a gentle stick.

 

Umm, I don't see the issue. JB wants to release some mental farts like usual. If you believe in Allah, make dua, because the quran tells you, and the prophet tells you. Why would a person who doesnt believe in God bring up prayers. Dude is crusin' for a brusin'. But I'll resist being vulgar this time.

[Naden]

Northerner,

But it all boils down to

belief

and it’s understanding.

For you, perhaps, but not necessarily everyone. Since the dawn of creation, people prayed to lift misery and ask favours. Since the advent of religions, especially what are termed the Abrahamic faiths, they’ve grappled with choice and predestination since the messages stress both personal responsibility and the divine hand in everything. You seem to have worked out the details in your mind, events are both prewritten and up to the person, preordained to the letter and yet up to the person to navigate.

 

But why are the poor usually the one’s filling up the mosques if their prayers are no being answered?

A very good question. I think it is because many believe that they have much less control over their lives than they actually do but that may a different discussion altogether.

 

Would the complete understanding of the above justify your notions?

You’ve lost me on the notions you’re referring to but a solid, linguistic analysis and understanding of these terms would be a good starting point for me.

 

Originally posted by Dhucdhuc & Dheylo:

Naden, I dont understand your point above. Are you saying Allah is unable to go against gravity

 

Xashalillah! Of course, he is able. But would he be willing to do so if you pray hard enough?

 

Xiin,

 

I don’t have problems with fate and predestination; they are areas of complex interest for me (as is prayer) and worthy of a solid discussion. I don’t believe there is a you and we in this instance .

[Cara.]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

So fate and predestination has lastly become what JB, Cara, and to some degree Naden, have problem with miyaa? It’s one of the most intricate theological questions, to be sure, but it also has a well-founded traditional argument.

 

Answer in the affirmative, and we will be ready to beat you with a well-oiled divine stick

that’s fated to pound you into shape…

LOL. Promises, promises.

[N.O.R.F]

JB

 

Again, your dancing. MC Hammer would be proud.

 

Cambarro , well put.

 

Naden

 

You seem to have worked out the details in your mind, events are both prewritten and up to the person, preordained to the letter and yet up to the person to navigate.

My earlier comment on people being left to their devices meant people who have the necessary understanding of prayer/rewards/pre-destiny etc. I think Cambarro explained it nicely. If I intentionally want to miss a prayer today I know I would commit a sin and blame myself but also know it was written for me to commit that sin (preordained).

 

A very good question. I think it is because many believe that they have much less control over their lives than they actually do but that may a different discussion altogether.

Hmmm, your right a different discussion.

 

Cara asks:

 

Northerner, isn't whether you make dua or not also written?

Yes. But what is your take on the issues being discussed? I know your itching to join in

 

Xiino, I think we are ready for another dimension to the topic.

[Johnny B]

North

 

Mc Hammer's " you can't touch this" is a classic.

 

Back to the toipc,

 

There is an unforgiveable contradiction in the concepts of Prayers, fate, Predestination and the belief in a concerned, Omniscient and Omnipotent God , who is always around and constantly influences the subsequent fate of the believers.

 

A God that is Omniscient, Ompnipotent and morally just, who detailedly predestines every Person's accomplishment in life presumeably has the knowledge of the sum result of that Person's accomplishment in life.

 

Given that, That Omniscient, Ompnipotent and morally just God made Hell and Heaven for the purpose of punishing the sinners and rewarding the good doers entails that God knows by way of predestining the actions who is going where.

 

Now , for an Omniscient, Ompnipotent and morally just God who already predestined the course of any event we may encounter , there is little if any reason to intervene the course of events again, hence answer prayers or punish sinners, unless either the Predestination of events was never made ( people are left in their devices) or that Omniscient, Ompnipotent and morally just God for a reason or another decides the predestination of events he made earlier was somehow wrong, which contradics God beeing Omniscient, Ompnipotent and morally just in the first place.

 

And if that Omniscient, Ompnipotent and morally just God predestined any event that i may encounter and never intervenes again, then Praying is meaningless somaha? as God never interneves again since he already predestined it ,and it all hangs on my free will, in another words it is upto me to either thank God for say giving me Cancer or silently think his predestination 'sucks'.

 

Good Xiin,

Without you holding that semi-saddistic stick, would you mind picking that devine carrot first and feed these hungery wolfs, untamed as they may seem , still nothing beats a well cooked crispy carrot.

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by Naden:

There is an internal working to our world, biological and physical, that is both within and outside of our control as humans. It seems to work despite the religious leanings of a group or the devout practices of an individual.

That is worth noting indeed !!

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by Northerner:

If I intentionally want to miss a prayer today I know I would commit a sin and blame myself but also know it was written for me to commit that sin (preordained).

This,to say the least, is confusing.

 

How can an event that is already preordained by God be under your sphere of influence (free-will) ? ,

God can either preordain events in a specefic way and you'll have no influence (free will of your own), or let your free will and intentions influence an event,and thus be accountable for your actions.

 

As for blaming yourself becouse you intentionally missed a Prayer, you may want to present yourself as humble and meak infront of the almighty , but the child voice in you that says, "it was preordained, so i'd no choice" is load and clear.

[Elysian]

JB, did you have a short-command-button on your keyboard for “Omniscient, Omnipotent and morally just God”, if so pls stop abusing it

 

Perhaps the Omniscient, Omnipotent and morally just God had preordained this discussion of yours, and hence preordained us praying to him, and hence you JB questioning the meaning of the prayer etc. etc. But then again, you’d ask, why we should be punished for actions we’re not in charge over! Can fate and free will co-exist, if yes, any way you look at it, it’s a paradox, I don’t think one can find a logical solution to it. However, I’d still say yes... I don’t base all my conclusions on logic thinking. It’s not only in belief one is faced with paradox situations, but also when attempting to explain our physical surroundings.

 

If there is no higher deity, then our actions and thoughts would solely be the consequence of the chemical reactions occurring in our brain... even why I’ve written what I just wrote could be explained in terms of physical properties (biology being just a macro-level of physics). I think even a non-believer would be reluctant to accept this... or perhaps this is an easy thing for you to digest JB

[Khayr]

Originally posted by Johnny B:

quote:Originally posted by Northerner:

If I intentionally want to miss a prayer today I know I would commit a sin and blame myself but also know it was written for me to commit that sin (preordained).

This,to say the least, is confusing.

 

How can an event that is already preordained by God be under your sphere of influence (free-will) ? ,

God can either preordain events in a specefic way and you'll have no influence (free will of your own), or let your free will and intentions influence an event,and thus be accountable for your actions.

God is Omniscient and He knows future events or rather events that appear thus to beings limited by time; if God did not know these events He would not be Omniscient.

 

The individual will is RELATIVELY FREE i.e. RELATIVE LIBERTY.

If it were not in any degree free it would be deprived of all reality and compared to Absolute Liberty (which GOD alone Possesses not MAN)

 

What the Modern Agnostic/Atheistic mentality prostylizes/propagates is Absolute Liberty. Absolute Liberty would entail that you be ABSOLUTE i.e. Infinite, Omnipresent, Omniscient etc. All these qualities can not but belong to ONE ABSOLUTE BEING because ABSOLUTNESS demands ONENESS. You can't have two CEO's in a company, you can't have two Chairmans in a company.

 

The WILL is real in man in the measure in which MAN particapates in Divine Liberty from which individual liberty dervies all its reality as a result of the relationship btwn GOD and MAN.

 

A metaphor can be made to illustrate this by comparing liberty to liquid that settles into a Vase, Jug etc., the latter representing Predestination. The movement of the liquid is equivalent to the free excercise of our will. If we can not will anything other than what is predestined for us, this does not prevent our will in relatively real participation.

 

 

 

As for blaming yourself because you intentionally missed a Prayer, you may want to present yourself as humble and meak infront of the almighty , but the child voice in you that says, "it was preordained, so i'd no choice" is load and clear.

Therefore, if you miss a prayer the very fact that you could 'RELATIVELY CHOOSE and PARTICPATE IN YOUR CHOICE'[ to miss that prayer and then reflect on it, shows that you had a 'CHOICE' but CHOSE another path for which you will be held RESPONSIBLE FOR.

 

Try your argument in a court of law regarding a speeding ticket or worse-murder and see what the outcome is and how absurd you sound.

[N.O.R.F]

Mc Hammer's " you can't touch this" is a classic

He also had a silly dance

[Johnny B]

Elysian,

I'm sorry about the repetitiveness in my post , i'd to highlight specefic attributes of God(Allah) as i was accused of lacking knowledge of such attributes earlier in the discussion.

 

As for the complexity of the world and coming to logical conclusions, you're not alone to not have all your conclusions based on logical thinking and reasonable stances, unlike you i do the only rationally justifiable thing to do , namly fence-sitting, instead of conceeding to the popular beliefs that doesen't hold water in your rationale,just to hold on to an old tradition or appease the casually religious rabbles.

 

Khayr

 

Though i like your attempt to couple the "releatively free" will and God's sometimes detrimental predestination ,you leave much to be desired and you almost redefined the terms.

 

If Allah predestined so North will intentionally miss Apr 20th Friday prayers, due to beeing Omniscient, then Whatever North does or However North tries the result will be North missing that Friday prayers becouse Allah predestined it so.

 

North can then take his " relatively free " will and tack it somewhere as he has no choice but to miss the Friday Prayers.

 

What a will what a freedom ?

 

You tried very hard to say whatever North does is God's will and whatever God predestined will be North's will.

 

In your metaphor, the liquid has no choice but head the jug, the liquid is directed towards the Jug and prohibited to go all other directions. where is the choice in that?