An Essay by Einstein

[Johnny B]

CG, true that "rationality" is overrated in the sense that even those least rational among us claim to be "rational", in that sense and only in that sense it really is overrated, yet on its own merits, no sane person has ever taken the humblest of positions without attempting to pay respect to its sincere tenets.

Belief is based on evidence with a notch of intuition and in that regard i agree with you that its the glaring facts of reality and its uncertainities that stand soley against the whims of absolute beliefs, hence, one normally can't decide to just believe, and truth for the sake of truth is the least one can demand.

 

One intresting aspect of religious theists that i always found strange was the emmence of their capacity to reject the Gods,Prophets and Angels of their equally religious fellow theists who believe in different ones, and mostly on same grounds that i reject their own Gods, Prophets and Angels.

 

Reality fosters a mere possibility of the existence of a Deity and that is all there is to manoeuvre around for a religious theist, though a shrinking and crowded territory, still harmless and deserving stance, sometimes even vouchs for an acceptance, kept in its tiny tuxedo,that is. but when dressed with the superfluities of false garments,long beards, sacrificial redemptions,when washed in the blood of the lamb, when taken for crusades or "iftitah", massacres, holy wars, sticks turning to snakes, girls giving birth to babyboys without sleeping with men,punishments with fire or silly virgin rewards, all that in the name of the good, the streaming of that prose simpley doesen't sync with the mere possibility offered by reality.

I'm of the idea that the exigencies of life are best met when we stay true and real in our existence and for that i'd like to share the words of

Robert G. Ingersoll.

"Call me infidel, call me Atheist, call me what you will, I intend to so treat my

children that they can come to my grave and truthfully say, 'He who sleeps here

never gave us one moment of pain. From his lips, now dust, never came to us an unkind word.'"

 

Xiinow,Buckley Jr bad noo kentay?!

So I believe that it is as likely that there should be a man without a country, as a world without a creator

Ah, that is classic Xiinow, a car without a driver , a room without door , a man without woman, the list is endless, all are wonderful similes xiinow, just one tiny fact , all are infinite regress that beg the question and the futility of invoking God to terminate that regess is perniciously misleading at best.

Eid mubarak to all!!

[Centurion]

The concept of the superior entity and of 'intelligent design' is the only real explanation to the mystery that is humanity and its surroundings.

 

Logic is but a tool,flawed inherently by the simple fact that we humans make mistakes, don't see things, and generally aren't as smart as we think we are.

 

It is interesting to note that fathers of modern logic, the ancient greeks themselves used it to assert the existance of the eternal Creator.

Using logic to point to supernatural involvement, is of course a much easier job than using to establish their is no Greater Being- One is like fishing for puzzle pieces which would prove the puzzle isnt of a particular design, and the other like completing a puzzle who's design you already know.

And many religious scholars have fallen into the trap of manipulating verses of holy scriptures to fit some shred of scientific literature.

 

What is important is to approach all science with an open mind, because i doubt we will encounter definitive scientific evidence in our lifetime to convince everyone in believing one or the other.

 

Djib, being enamoured with large words and being prone to spelling mistakes don't go well together sxb .

[Cara.]

^Did Tyrion say that to Jon Snow? It's been ages.

[Centurion]

Yep.

Some real wisdom from Tyrion there.

[Johnny B]

CG, Eid wanagsan bro, this is your Eid gift, HE Adnan Oktar aka Harun Yahya enjoy it .

[Abu-Salman]

One intresting aspect of religious theists that i always found strange was the emmence of their capacity to reject the Gods,Prophets and Angels of their equally religious fellow theists who believe in different ones, and mostly on same grounds that i reject their own Gods, Prophets and Angels.

Divine Revelation has always been sent down to every nation and through numerous Prophets according to major monotheistic or pseudo-monotheistic faiths with elaborate, concomitant legislations.

 

Obviously, these more complete/coherent beliefs are marginalising previous traditional superstitions of isolated populations, and even winning converts from civilizations historically linked to a specific cult and unwilling to alter their customs(nationalist pride coupled to convenience explains a lot).

 

However, as a matter of fact, neither the last testament or the new one, nor previous Prophets' detailed traditions were preserved, thus diluting the credibility of Judeo-Christian claims and strenghtening Islam (or literally submission to the unique, omnipotent, benevolent Creator) as the final, universalized message delivered by Muhammad scw, whose traditions are widely and readily available in all details alongside the authentic Qur'aan.

 

It is worth noting here, that even Western academician use Ahaadiths as reliable sources in their biographical account of the last Prophet.

 

Little wonder, therefore, that these last major Islamic features of traceable authenticity continue to attract Western converts of every background in even more significant numbers.

 

Indeed, not only has the Qur'aan been memorized by various nations from its revelation but Ahaadiths narrators are submitted to arch-stringent tests of reliabililty (Ahaadiths sciences are a whole field of Islamic knowledge against which historian' standards seem ridiculously superficial in comparison)

 

Hence, thus justifying disbelief by "differing Gods, Prophets and Angels" is spurious to say the least.

[Johnny B]

Logic is but a tool,flawed inherently by the simple fact that we humans make mistakes, don't see things, and generally aren't as smart as we think we are.

SA, put in that way , things get intresting, if logic is an inherently flawed "tool" then our random whims are the better tools?, that becouse we (sometimes) do make mistakes therefore we never make it right?

If i can't logically deduct the conclusion of what i believe then its logic's fault ?, this , if anything, in itself is as far as flawed a logic can get.

Using logic to point to supernatural involvement, is of course a much easier job than using to establish their is no Greater.

 

The floor is yours!, please do so.

 

What is important is to approach all science with an open mind, because i doubt we will encounter definitive scientific evidence in our lifetime to convince everyone in believing one or the other.

And how open is a mind that believes that there're two invisble angels on your shoulders? don't you think that mind has already broken the natural laws of physics and biology?

 

Divine Revelation has always been sent down to every nation and through numerous Prophets according to major monotheistic or pseudo-monotheistic faiths with elaborate, concomitant legislations.

 

Djib, would you mind elaborating on that "every nation"?, the Abrahamic religions find their roots in one single nation , namely old israealites., and while elaborating , i'd appreciatorily bow if you highlighted and clarified what qualifies the source of what you refer to as Devine revelations as genuine in comparison to the others.There're over 20 religions and faiths that has atleast a million followers each, and all of them in a way or another claim their messages have came from an infalliable human-beeing( a prophet if u like ) who happens to have the extraordinary ability to meet either angels or Gods who entrusted that particular msg on them.

Furthermore, if and that is only if you could share with us how you slice through all obfuscation and conclude which devine msg is correct respectively incorrect.

 

"Rationalism" is a westren religion?

What is the name of its prophet?, what is the name of its adherents? any rituals, sacrifices? what is the punishment of rejecting it? what is the reward ? skip that .. its money, right?

 

* correction, It is not about justifying disbelief, its about theists rejection or disbelief towards the deities of other theists.

 

[ October 15, 2007, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Johnny B ]

[Caano Geel]

JB, first, thanks for yahya, i'll remember to listen to him as soon as i throw myself out of the nearest window.

 

second, logic as in formal systematic and mathematical form that we use is flawed not in terms of human make mistakes, but because it is in consistent with itself. This what Kurt Gödel proved in his incompleteness theorems. In short, they say that there can exist some things that are known to be true, but cannot be determined to be theoretically true. here, theoretical truth, is meant by following the rules of logical deduction and inference.

 

anyhow, the point is as sophist said, its metaphysical. and i'll add to it by saying if it cant be expressed is nasty maths, then its metaphysical.

[Johnny B]

CG, you're welcome about Yahya. , and stay away from windows.

 

As for the self containment and as-is-ness of logic , i'm familiar with (LNI)Logical Necessity of Inconsistency, it was your logical pic ( the picture format ) that got the best of the posters.

nonetheless, thanks for the enlightment.

As for Sophist and meta-physics, i've no problem with the great Sophist's position.

[Caano Geel]

As for Sophist and meta-physics, i've no problem with the great Sophist's position.

I wouldn't call him s great, have you seen how small his head is

 

so if you've got no problem with the metaphysics argument, what iss your problem with religion?

[N.O.R.F]

^^He is too intellegent for it dee,,,,

[Zafir]

^Daan daansiga jooji.

[Caano Geel]

^ and north, if you also agree with the metaphysics argument, what's your problem with atheists

[N.O.R.F]

^^I know they are wrong dee,,,,

[Zafir]

^Prove it.