Does the end justify the means?

[Cumar]

I had a recent discussion with a fellow Somali who basically argued in favour of the horrendous atrocities committed by the past Somali rebel groups in order to achieve their aim or objective. His argument and line of reasoning is that since the past regime engaged in atrocities; they (the rebel groups SNM, SSDF, USC et al) had the right to employ the same tactics, leading him to overlook their blame in the destruction of Somalia and rest it solely on the previous regime. We all know that every political group (i.e. previous regime and the rebel groups) played a huge part in the destruction of the 300,000 non-combatants who were raped, murdered or starved to death.

 

We are also aware of the atrocities committed by these groups, some public knowledge whilst others are white-washed (e.g. the SNM atrocities). The SNM for instance concealed and hid themselves amongst civilians whilst also retaliating against any member that did not belong to their clan or supported the previous regime and thus forcing the non-SNM civilians to abandon their strongholds. Now, can one concur that we condone these means since it achieved their objective or not. If so, then why.

 

I firmly believe that no matter what the means where, an atrocity is an atrocity and should be condemned.

[Jacaylbaro]

We are also aware of the atrocities committed by these groups, some public knowledge whilst others are white-washed (e.g. the SNM atrocities). The SNM for instance concealed and hid themselves amongst civilians whilst also retaliating against any member that did not belong to their clan or supported the previous regime and thus forcing the non-SNM civilians to abandon their strongholds.

Here we go ,,,,, you are extremely WRONG bro ,,, why someone can't hide his feelings when he wants to talk about general issues ??? SNM did not hide among civilians and never retaliated against any clan who did not belong to theirs ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, how can someone fabricate such issue ,, i just can't believe it ,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

I wanted to respond to the topic but i hate this fabricated information and all those hate feelings of yours ,,,,,,,

[Cumar]

Originally posted by Jacaylbaro:

quote: We are also aware of the atrocities committed by these groups, some public knowledge whilst others are white-washed (e.g. the SNM atrocities). The SNM for instance concealed and hid themselves amongst civilians whilst also retaliating against any member that did not belong to their clan or supported the previous regime and thus forcing the non-SNM civilians to abandon their strongholds.

Here we go ,,,,, you are extremely WRONG bro ,,, why someone can't hide his feelings when he wants to talk about general issues ??? SNM did not hide among civilians and never retaliated against any clan who did not belong to theirs ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, how can someone fabricate such issue ,, i just can't believe it ,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

I wanted to respond to the topic but i hate this fabricated information and all those hate feelings of yours ,,,,,,,

Jacaylbaro, hate has nothing to do with this topic as I am not singling out any group. Your objection did not suprise me as I consider you a staunch SNM-supporter who has a rather saintly view regarding them. Atrocities were commited by every single group and not only by the non-SNM groups.

 

Here are the accounts of their massacres.

 

Somali Refugees in the Horn of Africa:

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/3949/atrocitiesgl9.jpg

 

Misappropriation of relief aid:

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/5213/atrocities2dx3.jpg

[Jacaylbaro]

it is still fake documents and fabricated stories ,,,,, i was there unless you were one of refugees and want to make your own excuses ,,,,, shiish wanaag i say ??? ,,, don't know but may be not so far ,,,,

[Taliban]

Originally posted by Jacaylbaro:

i was there

If you were there, it doesn't mean how you witnessed the event or how it appeared to you is complete or correct. For instance, if you see from a distance an apple falling from a tree, that's what you saw. However, someone close to the tree might have seen the apple squashing an insect. Therefore, your presence and what you witnessed isn't all you have witnessed, seen or how it appeared to you.

[Jacaylbaro]

So u saying he was one of the refugees ????? ,, i can imagine that

[Taliban]

Originally posted by Jacaylbaro:

So u saying he was one of the refugees ?????

You didn't get it; that's not what I am saying. All I am saying is, what you have personally witnessed or seen isn't (necessarily, as accurately as) what you have personally witnessed or seen. For instance, you could get acquainted to a "beautiful" woman who works at an aid organization in your country. You could be tempted to like or even love the "beautiful" woman, because you perceive her to be beautiful. However, would you still like or love the woman if a month prior you have met her the woman looked differently in most of her life? Check how the woman looked before and after:

 

http://www.funmansion.com/cool_pictures/extreme_makeover_7.jpg

[Taako Man]

Hello Brother Suleyman. The ends sometimes justifies the means as I recall from a discussion with one of my very politically sound professros.

 

The acts of the former Barre Regime and the counter-acts by the rebel groups in question, be it the SNM, SSDF, USC etc are in in direct relation to the gross misuse of powerful resources by Barre towards his own citizens (i.e using South African racist Mercenaries in the North, Poisoning water wells in the Central regions and pitting Clans against clans in the south).

[Khalaf]

Originally posted by Suleyman:

I firmly believe that no matter what the means where, an atrocity is an atrocity and should be condemned. [/QB]

First thanks brother for posting this. I strongly second that believe. In Islam the ends does not justify the means under no circumstance, there are rules to war! Even the Sayyidka and his darwish army in the war against the British killed many innocent ppl, haraam in Islam. Yes Sayyid Barre's regime comitted atrocity that does not make it just to kill civilians and rape innocent women. I dont know about the SNM or SSDF, but none were like the USC in their abuses against the somali ppl for that these cats many who still are alive should be tried for war crimes!

[Centurion]

cats many who still are alive should be tried for war crimes!

They will, they ALL will, in Akhirah.

[Cumar]

Khalaf, spot on walaal. We all know that Islamically, it is forbidden but unfortunately some individuals have no regard for the Islamic methodology when it comes to conducting war.

 

Taako Man, what you're presenting is that the retaliatory acts commited by these groups can be accepted since they were victims of previous atrocties, a simple eye for an eye? So, you conclude that thousands of innocenents had to be sacrified in order to feed their thirst of revenge.

 

Besides, the only rebel group that really achieved something was the SNM whilst others were wandering around oppressing people and creating a power/political vacuum. Taako man, I find your reasoning very unsettling if you argue that the murder of these thousands Somalis were justified counter-acts by the rebels and it will be more worrysome if you ever find somone that will agree with your view of point you apart from some deranged emotionless lunatic.

 

In fact, if you will not mind, could you provide a list of points that argue in favour of the massacres because I really would like to grasp at how you arrived at such premise.

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Khalaf:

I dont know about the SNM or SSDF, but none were like the USC in their abuses against the somali ppl for that these cats many who still are alive should be tried for war crimes!

The only difference between the 3 rebel groups is the clans they claimed to represent. Nothing else.

[ElPunto]

^Hmmm. I think there are 2 separate issues here that are being mixed up. Did these groups (SSDF, SNM, USC etc) have a right to rebel against Barre and his oppressive regime? I think the answer is a clear yes. Were they correct in some of the tactics they used particularly when civilians came to harm? The answer is a clear no. Where they committed atrocities these groups are to be condemned.