Originally posted by The Duke: ^^^How come they were all including Ayrow, Xasan Dahir, IndaCade and Seeraar top officials of the clan courts movement, and all were occupiers of the lower Shabbele as well as Kismayu? Coincidance I guess. So you admit this tragic war was against a single sub-sub-subclan. All the fighting, all those that died and all the uprooted was all a ploy to sideline leaders of a single tiny sub-subclan? By the way, all the arresting is beng done by another set of occupiers -- Ethiopia and it's sidekicks the TFG. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!

Northern, You're right, it's a meseum now but back in it's heydays (during the Golden Age of the Ottaman Empire) it was one helluva mosque. I like the blended architucture, a fusion of Turko-muslim and Byzantine Chritianity.

How come all these men are from the same sub-subclan?

Originally posted by President Anwar: the cold blooded killer who massacured 500 thousand ppl and displaced 3million the devil himself rotten in hell. :mad: Did you make that up off the cuff or are you privy to sources beyond my reach? Ceydiid was certainly not a nice man (my opinion), not a Gandhi by any strech for sure and blamed for many horrible crimes. BUT when did he kill half a million somalis and displace 3 million?

My fav the Hagia Sophia in Turkey:

This dude is a lackey of Zenawi and his sidekicks the TFG.

Originally posted by Awlugeeye: Each and every one of us in here has in one way or another been indoctrinated with the Qabiil. Not all Somalis. Some Somalis aren't even part of Somali qabiil system, how can they be blamed for being indoctrinated with what they don't subscribe to? What's more, among the more settled Somalis the Ina-adeer/Ina-abti syndrome is not as pungent as say among the more nomadic Somalis.

Wisdom lost, there's no Somalia to rebuild.

Originally posted by Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar: quote:Mainly: how can we be reassured Islam will not be misused like Somaalinimo was misused? Haye noo sheeg, who misused Soomaalinimo? Obviously Somalis. But more to the point, phony "politicians" who gave mealy-mouthed platitudes to Somalinimo and other high-flown slogans appealing to our (somali people) collective Somali identity. All the while pilfering the nation's meager resources and destroying public trust in the process. The brunt of the blame for this must go to none other than S. Barre regime, for his regime brought about this dire straits Somalis are wallowing in today. If anyone else besides Barre regime deserves blame it would have to be the corrupt but democractic (hence preferable) government from the days before Barre. Between the two saw the death of united Somalia. I let other groups (rebel movements) off the hook for the simple reason they were reaction to the injustices committed in the name of Somalinimo. Besides there were no SNM, USC, SPM, SSDF and so on before 1969, so we can confidently say who and/or what produced them. which is purely about -- and it does not require any layer aad ka qaadid -- walaaltinimo and iskaashi iyo midnimo? My comments were not meant as a jibe against you or other genuine believers in Somalinimo. It was generally directed at Somali history from mid-60s until 1991 where sucessive "political" leaders appealed to Somalis out of Somalinimo only to turn around and betray them. That period and the failures of Somali "political" leaders is what spawned, inter alia, the current disenchantment with the whole concept of Somalinimo. We are here for a reason and there's no effect without a cause. My arguement is the current predicaments confronting us as a people have deep underlying causes, among them the flagrant misuse and abuse of public trust by "political" leaders which manifested itself in injustices, corruption, repression, nepotism etc and with that witnessed the death of Somalinimo (in whatever form it existed). I'm afraid the old adage applies here: once bitten, twice shy!

Somaalinimo is/was a ruse by the political elites to garner wide support for their naked ambitions. Somalinimo was given it's chance and was not only found wanting but immensely detrimental to the interests of Somalis in general for the aforementioned reason. They say those who don't learn from history are apt to repeat it. For once Somalis made intelligent decision in rejecting phony nationalism in favour of sheer pragmatism and bottom-line. Not only was it smart decision but also based on many life statistics the correct one. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me! By the way, I fail to see how Islam is realistic remedy to Somalia's problems or credible replacement for Somaalinimo. I know many here regard Islam as panacea for all sorts of socio-politico-economic challenges but folks that's arguing out of faith and not from reason or evidence. It seems to me Islam suffer from the same shortcomings as Somaalinimo. Mainly: how can we be reassured Islam will not be misused like Somaalinimo was misused?

A. Yuusuf is pathetic loser, a rank coward and a traitor to his people. He never won anything without Ethio support. Somalis were and are better off without him and his poodle Fanaxey.

A non-biased, non-inclusive list: Borame Mareeg Cadale Warshiikh Jowhar B'Weyn Farlibaax (hiraan) and Jawiil (hiraan)

Yaa Walad dude and Al-Zhari are not the same person? Now why would I mix them up? Duke and Nabada, don't make a mountain out of mole hill. The spirit of MMA's thread was not to take a swipe at Mr. Al-Zhari per se but TFG reps in general who are seen as incompetent or under-qualified. He started off the thread with "another Yaa Walad" which clearly signified continuation from earlier howlers by TFG spokesmen. Don't take it out of context his thread and milk it for what it's worth but continue taking jabs at his percieved clansmen. For the record Shariif Xasan is helluva better leader than this whiney wimp ever will be. As I said earlier education/experience counts for very little in this regard. Edecation is just piece of paper, any bozo can get one. It doesn't earn you right to be revered neither does it afford you immunity from criticism.

Stop whining everyone. If Duke's antics here irks so much and if these selfsame antics are within the strict confines of SOL rules, then get even or zip it. Emperor: lets not get paranoid. There's no "conspiracy" to give Duke the boot. I, Mudane SocodBadne, fully support any SOLers right to be Xerox man or what not.

Originally posted by General Duke: The TFG troops are not looters, simple. Everyone can detect the lack of convinction in that statement. You know full well as do most informed Somalis that the TFG is teeming with looters, killers, corrupt officials and the works.

Tell them you're filthy rich or be seen as rich (drive fancy car, wear expensive clothes etc).

Lool! Duke is trying to embellish Al-Zhari's battered image after repeated public relations debacles. First was the "Yaa Walad Yaa walad" gaffe and now it's whinging on Al-Jazeera. This is guy is public relations disaster for the TFG. But Duke don't take it personal. Al-Zhari chose public life where criticism, fair or unfair, is part of the game. Regarding this damage control with his supposed "education", you know what they say: you can lead a donkey to water but you can't make the donkey drink.

Originally posted by Nabadshe: If this Elders have in their conscience an Iota of Gobanimo and somali elderly Ethics they would have at least released some statements over the massacres taking place in Xamar. Xamar is not settled by their people, they are "others" and it's not their city. It's a view shared by most Somalis outside of Xamar. Which raises an interesting question: if the invasion of the capital doesn't compell Somalis to feel invaded and if the mass destruction and human loss visited on the city's residents doesn't compell Somalis to feel they have been attacked, what on earth is the point of building a Somali "government"? Who is it being built for?

Originally posted by General Duke: ...Nothing to suggest the TFG was hampering anything, but the Harassment part should be looked into. It's more than infrequent cases of "government" troop harrassment. From independent reports and eye-witness accounts it's more systematic harrassment with expressed intent to hassle travelers. Read this account by Martin Fletcher of TimesOnline (I assure you he doesn't own looted properties in Moga): "The Government’s own army consists of barely 5,000 “soldiers” — former members of the warlords’ militias who inspire fear, not confidence. They man checkpoints and stand on corners in central Mogadishu, flaunting their semi-automatics. Many chew qat. Some steal and extort (we twice had to pay bribes at checkpoints). Now, contrast it with this observation made by same reporter about pre-Habashi/TFG invasion days: "We had first visited Mogadishu early last December, five months after the Courts ousted the warlords, and found a city still rejoicing. Gone were the ubiquitous checkpoints where the warlords’ militias killed, extorted and stole. Gone were their “technicals” — Jeeps with heavy machineguns mounted in the back. Hundreds of Somalis were returning from foreign exile, businesses were reopening, and for the first time in a generation people could walk around safely amid the ruins of their once-fine capital, even at night." Martin Fletcher - TimesOnline

Originally posted by General Duke: ^^They never did impede it saxib. Shells hit hospital in Mogadishu An injured man at a hospital in Mogadishu Many civilians have been caught up in the fighting A hospital has been hit in Somalia's capital in fighting between insurgents and pro-government Ethiopian forces. Relatives and medical staff ran from the SOS hospital after at least four missiles hit. Casualties are unclear. The BBC's Mohammed Ibrahim Moalimo says many of the patients have been transferred to another hospital. Other Mogadishu hospitals have already been hit by shells during the week-long Ethiopian advance and are struggling to cope with the casualties. An estimated 340,000 people have left Mogadishu since February, the UN says. This is the eighth consecutive day of clashes between Ethiopian troops backing the interim government and insurgents and fighters from the city's dominant ****** clan. Ethiopia's prime minister says he hopes to have routed the insurgents within a fortnight. Obstructive The interim government is being accused by diplomats of preventing aid from reaching people fleeing the clashes. I am not practising clan-discrimination as others are. If there is land where they can live, I will give them my land, and water free. Also medical tests I do free Dr Hawa Abdi Western diplomats say demands to inspect all aid shipments was adding to the misery, AP news agency reports. Earlier, the UN humanitarian chief said insecurity, checkpoint harassment and new administrative directives have all obstructed humanitarian efforts. UN, EU and US diplomats in the region have all appealed to the government to stop complicating aid delivery. "The efforts of international agencies to come to the aid of these stricken people are being thwarted on the one hand by militia looting relief supplies, demanding 'taxes' and violently threatening aid workers, and on the other by administrative obstacles imposed by the transitional federal government," AP news agency quotes a letter written last week by the German ambassador to Kenya. Earlier, US Ambassador Michael Ranneberger wrote that "these practices are unacceptable and undermine the legitimacy of your government". In a meeting with the government, the UN's humanitarian chief John Holmes received promises that things would change. "They have assured us of full support for humanitarian access and humanitarian workers," he said. 'No food; no shelter' A doctor just outside Mogadishu told the BBC about the difficulties of running her own maternity clinic. Somali government troops in Mogadishu on 22 April 2007 The fighting has raged for seven days "Around my hospital there are 2,000 families, mostly children and women," Hawa Abdi told the BBC's Network Africa programme. "There is no food or shelter. We have a small quantity of water, but we aren't able to get water from the well. The UNHCR reached us and gave us small plastic shelters, but it is not enough." Dr Abdi said she is trying to care for all who come to the clinic, both those who come to give birth, and those wounded in the fighting. Other medical staff have arrived from hospitals that have been damaged in the fighting in the centre of the capital. "Some people are injured, and they are coming to my hospital. I am not practising clan-discrimination as others are. If there is land where they can live, I will give them my land, and water free. Also medical tests I do free," she said. "Other doctors are coming from Mogadishu where there was heavy shelling of the Hayat hospital, and also from the Arafat hospital they are coming to help me." Somalia has not had a functional government since 1991. A transitional government was formed in 2004, but has so far failed to take full control of the country. Ethiopian troops announced they had begun to withdraw, to be replaced by an African Union peacekeeping force, but only 1,200 of the 8,000 troops the AU says it needs have been deployed. source

Originally posted by General Duke: Government agenciesHumanitarian Assistance and Disaster ManagementAgency (HAMDA) (“Puntland”)Ministry of Interior (“Somaliland”)Ministry of Interior, Security and DisarmamentDemobilization and Reintegration (“Puntland”)Ministry of International Cooperation and Planning(“Puntland”, “Somaliland”, TFG)Ministry of Resettlement, Rehabilitation andReconstruction (“Somaliland”) National Refugee Commission (TFG) SOURCE If this is true -- distributing donated food rather than impede it -- it's welcome news.

Originally posted by ThePoint: SB - don't worry bout it I'm not worried at all. Just trying to get to the bottom of this looting reference you and others constantly harp on. It's bizzare fixation because the looters are always some amorphous group who own undocumented looted properties and the two factors are, allegedly, conspiring to keep the civil war going (a civil war that didn't start in 1991 by the way). But where is the compelling evidence for this?

ThePoint, What loot?

The joke is on the TFG and it's supporters for stooping so low. What's next? The TFG taking credit for ICRC activities?

I think everyone agrees most if not all of booliqaran from pre-91 to post-91 must be returned or justly compensated or other amicable solutions found. But lets not delude ourselves Somalia's problems lay more in it's gross underdevelopment and related socio-economic factors. No amount of returned stolen land will solve these underlying problems.