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  11. Posted

    Bild7_Old_Parliament.jpg

     

    Originally posted by ibtisam:

    Woow, these pictures are so nice, damn, why did we even leave the place, let alone stay away so long. I wonder how these places look now
    :(

    somalia2.jpg

     

    Different angle

     

    2316085.jpg

     

    Sorry about taking away the feel good factor of this thread.

  13. Posted

    Transcript: Somalia’s Future

     

    His Excellency Abdullahi Yusuf Ahmed

    President of the Transitional Government of Somalia

     

    Chatham House

     

    Thursday 22 February 2007

     

    Ms. Healy, ladies and gentlemen,

     

    I am very pleased to be here today to talk to you and share with you the situation in

    Somalia.

     

    Ladies and Gentlemen,

     

    Before I got into the main thrust of my speech, I’d like to briefly mention an aspect of

    the Somali political landscape that does not come to the mind when we talk about

    Somalia.

     

    Somalia used to be a multiparty democratic state. I was one of very few countries in

    the continent where political power changed hands in a peaceful and democratic

    way. Between 1960, when Somalia became independent, to 1969 when the military

    took power in a coup d’etat, three free and fair general elections and one presidential

    election took place. The loser conceded willingly and congratulated the winner. The

    will of the people was respected.

     

    I am bringing this issue to fore in order to dispel the negative image that has take

    shape in the minds of the citizens of this world that Somalia is a hopeless country

    and is beyond redemption. It is not.

     

    Since October 1969 Somalia has been through 20 years of military dictatorship and

    an additional 16 ears of a conflict that left behind the death of more than half a million

    people, the complete collapse of the socio-politico-econo mic infrastructure as well as

    the displacement of millions of people. The effect of this conflict is still visible in the

    land and people.

     

    As you know, many attempts were made to bring peace and stability to Somalia, but

    all failed. It seemed that every time one reconciliation conference failed to bring

    peace, new armed faction appeared in the political arena. The warlords who own and

    run these militias were given seats on each reconciliation conference. This behaviour

    sent the signal that “violence pays” and within a short period Somalia became the

    most dangerous place on earth.

     

    However, neither the Somali people nor the international community gave up on the

    effort to find a lasting peace in Somalia. Their perseverance was rewarded in 2004

    when, after a two-year conference in Kenya of representatives of the Somali people,

    a Transitional Federal Charter was agreed by the delegates and the Transitional

    Federal Government (TFG) was born. It was an all inclusive broad-based

    government and each and every social group were truly represented.

     

    Despite many difficulties that we faced, the government relocated from Nairobi to

    Somalia. Unfortunately, Mogadishu remained a haven for violent groups whose

    leaders were also members of the parliament as well as the transitional Federal

    Government of Somalia (TFG).

     

    An apparent breakthrough for Somalia came about in June 2006, when an alliance of

    religious groups collectively called Union of Islamic Courts (UIC) defeated the

    warlords who controlled Mogadishu. I say apparently because the early optimism

    that we saw did not last. Although initially they made positive statements about

    peace and reconciliation and their intention to work with the TFG, they emerged on

    the agreements they reached twice with the TFG in Khartoum and the third time

    refused to sit with the government delegation and showed a hostile intent towards the TFG. This hostility turned to a real threat to the TFG. In December 2006, they attacked Baidoa, the seat of the government.

     

    The UIC was bent on taking the political power by force. However, when they were

    defeated by the TFG army and fled Mogadishu, the leadership of the UIC resigned

    and disbanded their organisation. They decided to go underground and harass the

    government through guerrilla warfare. That did not materialise and the UIC cease to

    exist as an organization.

     

    Ladies and Gentlemen,

     

    Today, the government is in control of the whole country. But establishing complete

    security and law and order would require time and tremendous effort. Mogadishu is

    overflowing with arms of all types and sizes. Some are leftover of the previous

    regime and warlords. But most of the sophisticated arsenal came from countries that

    support international terrorism whose intention was to support the UIC to maintain its

    grip on Mogadishu and surrounding areas. Some of the countries were our historical

    allies, who have contributed much in the Somali National Peace Process in Kenya

    2002/2004. We urge these countries to help us rebuild Somalia and refrain giving

    hands to the spoilers of peace and stability.

     

    These arms are in the hands of individuals or organised groups. Pacifying

    Mogadishu would need time and patience and winning of the hearts and mind of the

    general public. There is no military solution for peace in Somalia and the TFG is

    determined to bring peace to every corner of Somalia.

     

    It was a matter for regret that Somalia has recently attracted attention as a haven for

    terrorist organisations and as an exporter of the radical phenomenon. The lack of

    central government that could control the borders of the country contributed to this

    situation. As early as 1992, there were unsubstantiated rumours that some of the

    local warlords were sheltering some known terror organisations. It is now an

    accepted fact that the individuals who bombed the US Embassies in Nairobi and

    Dar-Es Salaam came from Somalia.

     

    Terrorism is an international phenomenon and needs international effort to eradicate

    it. It is an article of faith for the TFG that never again shall Somalia become a haven

    for terrorism. We shall never allow violent organizations to take a foothold in Somalia. The demise of the UIC is the beginning of this process. It is incumbent

    upon the international community to help Somalia in it’s counter terrorism efforts.

     

    Ladies and Gentlemen, Somalia is standing at a crossroad. For the first time in two

    decades the future of Somalia is in the hands of its people. We have a government

    that is the result of a long process of national reconciliation. It is determined to reestablish

    law and order and democratic governance. We know it is a long and

    difficult road but one which we are determined to take. Somalia must reclaim its

    sovereignty and the people must take the destiny of their country in their hands.

     

    We believe that the future of Somalia is bright. After the defeat of the Islamic Courts,

    I called for a national reconciliation congress that would finally reconcile the warring

    Somali clans and that would cement the political reconciliation that was achieved in

    2004. This congress will take place in Somalia in the coming weeks. It will be open

    for Somalis from all walks of life, inside as well as outside the country. We hope it will

    consign conflict to history once and for all.

     

    Among the objectives of this reconciliation congress is:

     

    • To inform the public about the outcome of the Somali National Reconciliation

    Conference that took place in Kenya in 2002/4. In this regard particular

    attention will be given to the meaning of the transitional period and the

    transitional federal charter.

    • To achieve inter and intra clan; genuine reconciliation and forgiveness and

    the cancellation of our traumatized memories of the civil war.

    • Establish and advise on a mechanism for the return of properties to their

    rightful owners through the legal system.

     

    There is one question I am asked time and time again. Namely: what are we going to

    do about the Islamic courts? Let me address this issue as clearly as I can The Islamic courts as an organization is no longer. We have nothing against negotiating with anyone as long as the objective of such negotiation is the advancement of peace in Somalia. We hear about the existence of moderate elements in the Islamic

    Courts. I say: tell us where they are and we shall seek them out and talk to them and

    try to bring them into the fold.

     

    The only conditions we put on anyone who is interested in dealing with us are to lay

    down their weapons, renounce violence and show commitment to peace and respect

    of the law. We will not talk to armed groups who are bent on destroying the peace

    and stability we are seeking.

     

    The future.

     

    As stated in the Transitional Charter, the commission will draft a new constitution that

    will form the cornerstone of the democratic governance the TFG is working to

    establish in Somalia. This constitution will be written and agreed upon before the end

    of the transitional period.

     

    The writing of the constitution will be followed by a popular referendum to approve it.

    It is very important that this process is not only transparent and credible, but also

    based on the will of the people. Once the constitution is passed, the government will

    prepare the country for a free general election.

     

    Although these steps are important for the political process and the strengthening of

    peace and reconciliation, it is important that the institutions of government are also

    built. These institutions are the engine that allows the state to function. Without these

    institutions, it would be difficult for the government to function properly.

    While the government will not spare any effort to rebuild the institutions of

    government, there is also a role for the international community to play. As I have

    said previously, Somalia is coming out of a terrible conflict that has destroyed the

    socio-politico-econo mic structure of society. We hope and expect that the

    international community will contribute towards the creation and functioning of these

    institutions. The international community can help us not only with financial

    assistance but also expertise, training and capacity building.

     

    Ladies and Gentlemen. There is a real opportunity to restore peace and good

    governance in Somalia. This will be achieved by a process owned by the Somali

    people. But for it to succeed the international community must be involved. We hope

    the United Kingdom will lead the world in this endeavour.

     

    Let me conclude by saying that Somalia has seen better and more peaceful days. It

    has also seen a democratic system of government. I am sure it can be turned around, and it is my aim to make Somalia peaceful enough for democracy to flourish once more. I hope we can count on your support.

     

    Thank you.

     

     

    Link

  14. Posted

    Gabbal,

     

    Yes I do have an alternative. However the case of the Sharifites is not yet exhausted. First we need to cover that area before we can move on.

     

    Xiin and Paragon have between them the skills to put forward a stronger case for the TFG then they have done so far.

     

    As a referee it is your job to urge them to put forward their complete case for the TFG.

     

    After doing that we should analyze the points of contention and accept any consequences that may arise from this debate.

     

    Only once those criteria have been met can we speak of an alternative.

  16. Posted

    Xiin,

     

    I have quoted these 4 important points from your post.

     

    1.

    TFG is a legal fiction recognized by the world.

    2.

    TFG IS also a known commodity. It’s NOT anew phenomenon. Those who support it do so because they firmly believe that for Somalia to come back we have to start from somewhere. It is that somewhere. It’s far from perfect; its basic political construct is clannish; both chambers are filled with men with questionable characters; it does not enjoy the support of all Somalis.

    3.

    start somewhere and gradually improve it as normalcy comes back. And this tfg, mind you, particularly calls for reconciliation.

    4.

    The presence of foreign troops in Xamar is justified on security grounds.

     

     

    The TFG is a legal fiction

     

    As you have pointed out the TFG is a legal fiction. It has been concocted and cooked up by foreign actors who wished to have a partner in Somalia. A puppet that can turn up during ceremonies and sign papers when needed. People other than Somali’s have decided to invent a Somali government for their own benefit, not for the benefit of the Somali people. The main stakeholder of the TFG is not the Somali Nation but those who have invented it. Those that fund it and those that keep it alive. So it was interesting to hear Ould Abdalla call the TFG the legitimate government of Somalia, I was amazed by his speech and wondered what criteria he used to come to the conclusion that the TFG is the legal government of Somalia?

     

    TFG is invented and has no legitimacy whatsoever. Its framework has been designed externally and now they expect us Somali’s to accept this framework like rats in maze, like hamsters in a wheel. The TFG framework is worse than colonialism. It has the pretence of self-government, but is designed in such a way that our people will be virtual slaves. That our government will be accountable to foreign actors not our own people.

     

     

    The TFG is a known commodity that is flawed but it may gradually improve?

     

    In the previous paragraph we saw that the TFG framework was flawed and that it was unfit for the needs of our people. In this paragraph I will try not dwell on the characters that make up the TFG.

     

    You said:

     

    its basic political construct is clannish; both chambers are filled with men with questionable characters; it does not enjoy the support of all Somalis.

    So we can see that the TFG’s design is flawed and that those that make it up are questionable characters. Now I wonder if the game is already rigged and those that are duped into playing the game are questionable characters how can the TFG gradually improve? Are you saying that we Somali’s should lower our standards? That we should expect less? Do we not have the right to make a government of our own? A government by the Somali people and for the Somali people?

     

    Do we not have the right to choose how we govern ourselves and those who make up our own government? Do we not have the right to hold those that take the responsibility of governing our nation accountable?

     

    We can see here that for us Somali to accept the TFG equals to accepting a colonial framework that undermines our right to have a state of our own design and our right to choose those that govern us.

     

    Foreign forces

     

    I will keep this one short. The TFG is an illegal entity that has been concocted up by foreign forces. It does not have the support of the Somali people and it cannot survive on its own.

     

    The fact that the TFG needs foreign forces shows its illegitimacy. The fact that the TFG is trying to subjugate the Somali Nation with the help of foreign forces that shell civilian areas show how corrupt the TFG is.

     

    The TFG is a covering screen for an invasion against Somalia, it is not the Somali government and those that work with it are committing treason.

     

     

    Conclusion

     

    If you know all this and still support the TFG then tell me, how you believe that the TFG given its limitations can gradually improve and give the Somali people the government they need?

  17. Posted

    Xiin,

     

    You have no right to question anything. I have played with you long enough. It is time that you came out and defended your lies.

     

    The Shabab is a necessary evil when our nation is confronted with the TFG I have described above.

    Do you disagree with that? If so tell us what parts you disagree with and why you believe that the TFG should have a chance? And how do you address the shortcomings of the TFG on the 6 points of National Interest?

  19. Posted

    Xiin,

     

    It is insincere and intellectually corrupt to narrow down Somalia's problems to Al Shabab. As you have claimed earlier in this thread:

    the central issue of Somali conflict---alshabaab !

    That is a perversion of the truth. You wish to ignore the most corrupt and biggest failure in Somali history the TFG and then you want a debate? And then you have the audacity to speak of parameters?

     

    As A&T put it its hypocritical.

     

    This is a forum of men Xiin, so behave like a man.

  20. Posted

    Xiin,

     

    You are not one to dictate parameters. I have accepted your invitation to discuss all matters not to be turned into an advocate of a single political group whose ideology I do not identify with.

     

    I have accepted your invitation with clear conscience and with sincerity. You on the other hand had clearly ulterior motives and was busy thinking of parameters.

     

    The points of contention between us are far larger then the parameters you wished to set.

     

    If your invitation was sincere then you will continue with this discussion until we have reached a satisfactory conclusion.

     

    On the other hand if your ploy has failed and you have no further tricks up your sleeve, then it is best you safe face and leave this thread.

  21. Posted

    Xiin,

     

    You invited me to this gogol. I had accepted your invitation. I have done my duty, the fact that you could not do that in this thread that you created only shows the character of your being and why someone of your character might support a failed entity such as the TFG.

     

    You have decided to run, an understandable instinct when facing me :D . Shall we say that it is too bad that there are no Ugandans in this forum that your kind can hide behind?

     

    The irony is in the name Xiinfaniin :D

  23. Posted

    Dear SOLers,

     

    For convenience sake the Sharifites of SOL have decided that it is up to me to defend the actions of Al Shabab - Xiz Islam. Unfortunately I will have to disappoint them.

     

    I will not defend the actions nor the ideology of Al Shabab – Xiz Islam.

     

    I will defend the common interest of the Somali Nation. I will also highlight where the common interest of our people and the actions of Al Shabab – Xiz Islam correspond. By doing this I hope that good SOL public has the opportunity to see clearly the difference between the TFG and its opposition in the form of Al Shabab – Xiz Islam.

     

     

    Issues of national importance for the Somali Nation are:

     

    1. The sovereignty of the Somali Republic. Not only in word, but also in practice.

    2. The total withdrawal of foreign forces from Somali soil.

    3. The right of the Somali people to choose a government of their own liking, without foreign nations imposing a puppet regime on them.

    4. The issue of the occupied territories.

    5. The disbandment of the TFG that illegally calls itself the government of Somalia.

    6. The unification of all Somali territories under one unitary government.

     

    In short that the Somali people get the reigns of their destiny back in their own hands.

     

    The TFG

     

    The TFG that fellow nomads such as Xiin and Paragon support is not a government. Even paper governments are ashamed of the TFG.

     

    • The initial The Transitional Federal Government (TFG) was formed 2004 in a process dominated by Ethiopia and Kenya. This TFG also known as TFG part 1 was composed of warlords who have held the Somali people hostage for more than 13 years at that time. So it is interesting to read the following on Transitional Federal Charter Art 31-2:

     

    A person shall be disqualified from being a Member of

    Parliament if that person: -

     

    (a) Holds any other public appointment other than as

    member of the Cabinet;

    (b) Has been pronounced as being of unsound mind;

    © Has been convicted of an interdictable offence;

    (d) Has been removed from any public office on grounds of

    gross misconduct or corruption.

     

    So the warlords were of Sound mind and not corrupt?

     

    • The TFG part 1 also worked on the principle of 4.5, the initial transitional Somali parliament had 275 representatives. Each major clan had 61 seats and the minor clans had 31 seats to share among themselves.

     

    This clannist division of Somalia still upheld by the TFG part 2 institutionalizes the clan factor in Somali politics. It strengthens regionalist tendencies and undermines national cohesion. The 4.5 formula also works in tandem with the proliferation of clan fiefdoms posing as mini-states. These mini-states form a direct challenge to any central authority in Somalia; furthermore they can be tools for division that can be used by malevolent foreign actors interested in the damaging of the Somali Nation.

     

    • To make matters worse TFG part 1 invited 50.000 Ethiopian troops and 4000 Ugandan troops onto Somali soil in order to subjugate the Somali Nation. The result was tens of thousands of deaths and hundreds of thousands displaced.

     

    That was the TFG part 1 in short. Then like any blockbuster horror movie a TFG part 2 was created.

     

    TFG part 1 met brave resistance from the Somali nation. The Ethiopian invaders, the Ugandan mercenaries, the TFG puppets and the shadowy masters pulling the strings behind the scenes realized that force, no matter how brutal can not subjugate the resilient Somali Nation.

     

    The enemies of the Somali nation when they couldn’t defeat the Somali people in battle choose treachery as their next weapon against our people.

     

    In late 2006 when the ICU was in disarray after the initial invasion, Sharif Ahmed the Spokesperson of the ICU. A man low on principles and high on ambition was captured on the Kenyan border. After the initial contact with foreign agents, these agents assessed that he could be of value, so they released him, keeping in mind that he could be turned into an asset.

     

    In mid 2007 it was already clear that TFG part 1 and its Ethiopian/Ugandan muscle were not capable of turning the tide against the Islamist/Nationalist coalition they faced.

     

    Then all of the sudden Sharif the former ICU spokesperson enters the political arena, no longer in camouflage or hugging an AK, no longer with cimaamad, but this time with a suit, and a kuffiyah. Relaxed and smiling.

     

    The minders of the TFG part 1 interested in giving the Ethiopian invaders a face saving opportunity forced their puppet Cabdulahi Yusuf to resign. The Ethiopians agreed to leave the Somali quagmire in order to have the chance to fight another day instead of perishing along with their imperial dreams in the streets of Mogadishu.

     

    Sharif brought along 275 loyalists to Jabuuti, these loyalists had no support from the population, they did not control an inch of Somalia and were only selected because they were yes-men. These 275 yes-men and the initial 275 TFG part 1 warlord parliamentarians selected Sharif in a sham process as the new ‘president’ of Somalia.

     

    The powers that helped Sharif to become the ‘president’ of Somalia were not in the vain believe that he would succeed in the task of governing Somalia. The only thing they wanted from him was to create divisions among the resistance movement and to destroy the only viable force standing in the way of their subjugation of our nation.

     

    Sharifs mission was to provoke an Islamist civil war.

     

    He and the treachery against our nation failed. Most loyal sons of Somalia united in one front against Sharif, his political opportunists and the treachery against our nation.

     

    Many of you may argue that I am too harsh on Sharif’s TFG, while others might say that I am too mild.

     

    Let us look at how the TFG performs when compared against the six issues of national importance

    1. The sovereignty of the Somali Republic. Not only in word, but also in practice.

    2. The total withdrawal of foreign forces from Somali soil.

    3. The right of the Somali people to choose a government of their own liking, without foreign nations imposing a puppet regime on them.

    4. The issue of the occupied territories.

    5. The disbandment of the TFG that illegally calls itself the government of Somalia.

    6. The unification of all Somali territories under one unitary government.

     

     

    1. The TFG is in the hands of foreign forces. They have designed it, they fund it and they guide it.

    2. The TFG is solely dependant on the protection of AU forces; it can not function without foreign forces. Let alone demand the withdrawal of these forces.

    3. The TFG part 1 and part 2 were imposed on the Somali people by outsiders. They are not a product of Somalia, but are foreign and artificial.

    4. The TFG has given away Somali territorial waters, let alone having an opinion on the occupied territories. We should also remember that the TFG speaker of parliament with the consent of Sharif Ahmed requested troops from neighboring countries while in villa Somalia. So how can the TFG speak about occupied territories while they are so much in need of support from Kenya and Ethiopia?

    5. The TFG calls itself the Somali government while it only controls few blocks in the capital alone and even this is due to the presence of foreign troops. Also how can the TFG call itself the Somali government while it can’t even manage the resources donor countries give to her? So if they can’t manage money, how do they want to rule Somalia?

    6. The TFG can not even run Mogadishu let alone unify Somalia.

     

     

    In conclusion

     

    From this short exercise we can see that one does not have to agree with the Al-Shabab –Xiz Islam coalition in order to disagree with the TFG and its naked supporters. We can all see that the TFG is a dead horse.

     

    There are matters of national importance when looking at this particular problem.

    The TFG has failed utterly and it does not have a chance for redemption.

     

    Al Shabab – Xiz Islam although they have radical tendencies, have time and again stayed close to the acceptable norm, occasionally surpassing the boundaries of decency but in general staying parallel with the Somali National interest when we look at issues concerning the unification of our country under one Somali rule, the occupied territories, withdrawal of foreign forces and the right of self determination of the Somali people.

     

    I would like to invite the supporters of Sharif’s TFG also known as the SOL Sharifites, in particular Xiinfaniin and Paragon to address the issues that I have raised in this post i.e. my objections against the TFG and the issues of National Importance.