or did you contract muta one time and want to feel it as legitimate thing. Please don't take it as personal attack because some people joint shia for this reasons. It is because of these types of ridiculous questions to silence people who challenge their reasoning that I’ve decided never to have any more discussions with these people. Their questions are not legitimate questions to find the truth but to belittle and argue with people whether they are Sunnis or Shias, they just don’t care. Their belief “if you are not with them then you are against themâ€. They support each other in good and bad. They have no clue about Amr bil Ma’ruf and Nahi anil Munkar. Insha Allah I'm unsubscribing from SOL because this is by far the most pointless forum I have ever seen. Seriously, it doesn't make sense to carry debates and discussions when different points of views and independant thinking are discouraged. Interestingly enough this is also the root of Somalia's main problems today. All the problems stem from the absolute discouragement of ideas and point of views and lack of understanding, respect and mainly not listening to each other.

This is the most ridiculous thread I've ever seen. I am going to sign off with this Qur'an verse: To you your religion, and to me my religion(109:6). May Allah give us the strength to face the things we cannot change and lead us to the right path the path taught by our beloved Prophet (saw).

let this be a new discussion, a new start between you and nur; no so and so said in so and so thread, This proofs what I've been saying all along. You Salafis always like to change the subject whenever you feel uncomfortable answering the questions. You might be told never to question authority but I am not. If you guys want to talk about the Sheikh let us first start with who this person is, what he did, how he decided to write this book. So everybody would know who we are talking about. All you want to do is to go into different interpretations of Islam so people will forget the issues. Brother Nur, this is going to be the last time I am going to ask you since you are the one invited me to a discussion. Do you want to start with the history of this Sheikh and his allegiances before he wrote this particular book? If your answer is yes then we can start a discussion if you are still avoiding these questions with the disguise of the arabic language so you can start a new topic and avoid the real issue then I do not accept your invitation on your own terms. It has to also be on my own terms PS. I see you have no problem others using google. Is it because they are salafis? and the Muta Marriage, a question you begged to be asked. Brother Nur, I suggest instead of bragging about studying arabic grammar you better start reading the books of AKHLAQ. It seems to me you don't even know the meaning of the word. Jazmine I suggest you start your own research instead of repeating what you are told. You might be happy to blindly follow the crowd but I am not.

In Islam we don't have the "separation of church and state". If we are going to talk about religion that includes politcs too. In order to talk about Kitab Tawheed we have first to talk about the circumstances in which it was written. I don't know why you are avoiding in all threads to talk about historical facts. We are going to discuss this by referring to the two topics: what is salafiyyah? what do salafees believe and call to? Hamza Yussuf: a Shik or a Suufi 1. Who founded the Saudi State 2. Who supported the slaughtering of the people of the Arabian Peninsula. 3. When did the Salafi started applying rule 8 and 9. The following of rule 8 and 9 did it became wajib after foundig the Saudi State or before that? 4. To go over all the historical facts I quoted in the two threads. Brother Nur I find it amusing that you are inviting me to a discussion when in the Shia/Sunni thread you accused me of "little knowledge" and "muta". What made you change your mind to make me at par with you?

Alhamdulllah that you have set the record straight, let us agree from today on that we discuss the issue at hand or any other issue from a single perespective, that of Mainstream Ahlul Sunnah wal Jamaacah. You started this thread in response to these two topics. what is salafiyyah? what do salafees believe and call to? Hamza Yussuf: a Shik or a Suufi As you can see it is all about Salafiyyah. In the past whenever the Salafis felt they could no longer have meaningful answers to the questions posed to them they tend to change the subject and go into irrelevant topics. In order to start a discussion the two parties must agree on the terms and conditions. It seems that we cannot agree on what we are discussing here. Your insistance that Salafis don't exist that is a myth, that the alliegiance between the Sheikh and Saud is a myth after having historical facts that you cannot proof don't exist makes impossible to start a discussion. This time I would like to finish our discussion about the Salafis without having the topic changed constantly to avoid certain questions. if the Sheikh was on a wrestling match I see him being tagged by at least four different heavyweight wrestlers, Shia, Sufi, The Politically motivated, by aligning him with present day Rulers an conditions, and lastly, war on fundememtal Islam ) Brother Nur, if you are saying that the Sheikh was not a co-founder of the Saudi State then prove it with references. And please check out all my references and historical facts about the alliance of the Sheikh and the Saudi. Did you read the book written by Sulayman ibn Abdal Wahhab al Najdi (the brother of the Sheikh) Divine Lightnings in Refuting the Wahhabis. Even his father(who was a Sheikh) was worried about his son along with the Sheikhs of Medina Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Sulayman al-Kurdi and Sheikh Muhammad Hayat al-Sindi (both followers of the Hanbali Madhab, and both former teachers of the Sheikh) Shafici followers took the apparent ( Al Thaahir) and in Somalis who are predominantly Shaaficis to this day will make wuduu if they touch women, whereas, Hanbalis, take the metaphoric meaning of the word ( touch) which implied intercourse, because in a similar situation, Virgin Mary RAA was told that she was about to have a baby while she was a virgin, she said " No human has touched me" and we know women do not get pregnant by mere touching. Imam Shafici and Imam Ahmed, had different interpretations of the Arabic meaning of this verse. If I say Imam Shafici's interpretation is right and you say Imam Ahmad is right quoting their understanding of the Arabic Language, don't you think that we will still be circling around the issue? Brother Nur, again in the Arabic language it depends on the interpretation of the teacher you are learning from. For instance the verse when Prophet Musa (a.s) asked to see Allah. He said "Thou wilt not see Me" and this case what is the meaning in the LAN (will not) mean. It depends on the grammarians where some say it means "neverness" and others say it doesn't mean that. How do you decide which one is right? "And the servants of the Beneficent Allah are they who walk on the earth in humbleness, and when the ignorant address them, they say: Peace." (25:63) Thank you Aristote I will take your advice and forget about the past and just say Peace.

Firstly Brother Nur, I will set the record straight and say that all of my sources are from ahlul Sunnah wal jamaacah. Now that this is clear, you can cease from saying that I quote from Shia sources. In all fairness from now on let us both quote where we are getting our references from whether from Salafi Scholars or Ahlulsunna wa jammah Scholars so that readers of this thread may refer back to these sources and make judgements for themselves. 1. That I made Pesronal attacks before : Please, show an example, If you find one, I will apologise, if you fail, I will happily accept an apology from you. 2. That I stray from the topic being discussed : There is a saying in somali (excuse my poor somali) La yeele ayaa xasuusta yeele ma xasuusto. We only had one discussion on your thread and I stopped contributing because of the personal attack. You say that you did not stray from the topic then why you keep quoting the Shias when we are talking about Salafi/Ahlulsunna issues. How can we have a discussion about Ahlulsunna (Maliki, Hanifi, Shafici, Hambali) and Salafi (followers of Ibn Abdulwahhab) and you keep insisting on using the Ahlulsunna wa Jammah term to confuse the muslims. By opting to google your way through English translations on the web and reading "Wahhabi" keyword, I am sure that you have come across interesting stuff, if I search the keyword " Sakina" likewise, I am sure that i can come up with my own weird theories, but, I dare not , I only search information from reliable sources and original books in their original langauges, besides, i recognize my limitations, so as I am talking to you now, The fact that you say I'm using google as the basis of my research is entirely an assumption on your part. Every time that I quote an aya from the Qur'an, hadith and a book I alway use the author, title, and page# as a reference. Now, Brother Nur, I will pose some questions to you: 1. Have you checked all my references? 2. Why is it that you assume that I base my research from google as you say and you don't question other people's research? 3. Since you are implying that my references are all from "Google key word sites" could you find any references that aren't from the books I quoted. That is, if you have read the books yourself? I am studying "Usuul Al diin" from Al Shaatibi and others in Arabic again, I am not boasting, it is an example. Are you saying that if we are not majoring in Arabic we have no business researching Islam but we should only listen to your interpretation of the Sharia. Does that mean you have no business talking about medicine or astronomy because you are not majoring in those fields? I believe eveybody has the right to seek knowledge about their religion and way of life regardless of whether they have a Phd in language or not. To the topic at hand regarding Allah having limbs(may Allah forgive us of even thinking that way) or not: Brother Nur, do you believe that the Qur'an is real and has no metaphor at all or that there are metaphorical verses?

I felt that its about time that i invite you for a an educational dialogue in which we exchange points of view with the intention to become better Musims and to have a better understanding of our faith so that we can serve Allah SWT in a befitting way. Brother Nur, from my past experience with you, it will not be easy to have an educational dialogue with you considering the fact that you tend to stray away from the subject and go into personal attacks. Dedicating many years of research on a scholar like Sheikh Mohammad Ibn. Abdulwahaab and his principles shows that you care about Islam and that you are sharing your knowledge with others, it can also earn you credibility to challenge the Scholar if you have a similar scholarly background, knowing that the Sheikh is not a Macsuum ( Infallible) like the Itnaa Asheri Shia Imams. It seems that even before we've begun the discussion you've already started to sway from the initial subject Salafi versus Ahlulsunna wa Jammah and making it appear to be a Sunni/shia dialogue. 3. How many sources of critics and supporters have you referred to in your research?, and how much of that has the Shia Ithnaa Ashariyah School of thought literature influence your research? Brother Nur, it seems to me that you are obsessed by the Shia and I would suggest that you go to your own thread that you started about them and have a discussion about their school of thought with them and not with me. You've asked several questions that have nothing to do with our topic. Are you implying that if someone is not educated in the Salafi madhab then he is deemed ignorant? I fail to have seen you anywhere of being this protective of someone who is capable of speaking for herself, why havent you come to my help before like her?, and Salafi brother for that matter, just to show that you are a impartial, balanced and just brother? Brother Nur, do you call this an educational discussion? How can we have a constructive discussion when people are not even entitled to their own point of view?

bint abee saeed ,thank you for your kind reply. I never meant to offend anyone and I ask if I inadvertantly offended any salafi to forgive me. I read the article on the site http://www.troid.org/articles/aqeedah/tawheed/asmaawassifaat/ and these confirms that my believe on Allah's attribute is different from the Salafi and I thank you for your honesty. I read the biography of Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab, both from the salafi point of view and the non salafi. Since I could not be sure which one was right I started researching history and trying to match the facts on both sides by comparing them with historical facts. How it started out? Who was involved? What happened to the Arabian Peninsula especially to Makka and Medina? Who supported who and why etc. After doing a long research that took me believe me years I came to the conclusion that I would stick to the historical facts that agree with both sides and it all comes down to the leadership and the believe in Tawheed. sakina perhaps we can exchange emails or something inshallah. Yes I would like to exchange e-mails InshaAllah. I hope we both follow what Allah tells us in the Qur'an (16:125) Call unto the way of your Lord with wisdom and good exhortation, and reason with them in the best way. Lo! your Lord best knows those who go astray from His path, and He knows best those who are rightly guided.

Brother Aristote, Insha Allah I'll follow your advice and stop talking about the alliegiance of the founders of the Saudi State in this thread. Let's concentrate as you suggested on his work such as Kitab al Tawhid by Ibn Abdul Wahhab. Brother, have you read the book yourself? If yes could you elaborate on Ibn `Umar (ra) informs us that he heard from the Prophet that on the Day of Judgement, Allah , Most Glorified, Most High, will fold up the seven heavens and take them in His right Hand and He will fold up the seven earth and take them in His left Hand and as He folds each of them, He will call forth the tyrants and the arrogant people, making them realise their insignificance by His Words: "I am the King." - i.e. He is the true Owner of all things; He is Perfect in every respect and there is no weakness or defect in Him and that all those who claim kingship or sovereignty are in fact weak and feeble, powerless in His Grasp. He will not be asked about what He does, but they will be asked. Benefits Derived From This Hadith 1. Confirmation of Allah's possessing two Hands, right and left. 2. Confirmation of Allah's Divine Attribute of Speech in a manner befitting His Majesty. 3. Confirmation of Allah's Name: Al-Malik (the King), from which is inferred His Ownership of all things. 4. Evidence that there are seven earths. 5. The forbiddance of tyranny and arrogance. 6. Evidence of Allah's Perfection and infallibility He also says that Allah is above us, the Kursi is the resting place of the Feet of Allah, that the Arsh is above the water and Allah is sitting on it, he even says that Ibn Abbas confirms of Allah having a hand. It is all in Kitab Tawhid.

And to answer your question: "Whether or not Abdul Wahhaab had anything to do with the Saudi state or not is none of my concern. If you studied your history, and know with certainty that objective historians collectively agree this is true, then so be it. If Ibn Abdul Wahhaab was an ordinary person like you and I and was one of the founder of the Saudi State then I would never question his actions. But he was a scholar, he was teaching Islamic ideology and principles people follow his interpretation of the Qur'an therefore we need to know who he was and what he did. The debate of xijaab and its conditions can be traced back to the times of the Saxaabah themselves. From the period of time, until today, respected scholars have come and gone, each with differential positions on this issue. If THEY, our marvellous scholars, haven't been able to agree AND EXPLICITLY set that aside to discuss the more important issues of Islaam, WHY CAN'T WE DO THAT, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE'RE 1000 TIMES LESS QUALIFIED THAN THEY ARE? Similarly, let's stop talking about Shaykh X and Shaykh Y and how great he is and how erroneous he is and what not. Brother Aristote, I agree with you that the issue of hijab is importat but I disagree that to know the scholars is not important. My opinion is that a sister not wearing hijab effects her more than others but a scholar's teachings effects all muslims since he is going to issue matters related to the sharia. Mizz_S Lander as i have said i have not studied the hisory of sauid, but i am soon starting the the life of abdual wahab may allah bless him, if i find anything that will help you i would let you know inshallah Thank you. Insha Allah I'll look forward to your replies. Only because I question his actions doesn't mean I dislike him. Every person who intends to research the muslims scholars should be praised and not accused of hatred. We need to understand that in these days of confusion and with so many madhabs the only way to find out the truth is to investigate the founders or scholars of the madhabs with open mindedness. Since you are starting to learn about the lives of the scholars I have only one advice for "Be Patient". I found out the more questions I asked the more I was the target of rage and wrath.

The people who follow the salafi madhab follow the teachings of Sheikh Mohammed Bin Abdul Wahhab. I am going to quote again King Fahad's speech: Muslims have been happy with the Sharia of Islam ever since it came to rule their affairs and daily lives. In modern history, the first Saudi State was founded on the basis of Islam more than two and a half centuries ago, when two pious reformers, Imam Mohammed Bin Saud and Sheikh Mohammed Bin Abdul-Wahhab (may God have mercy on their souls!) committed themselves to it. About this thread I am asking myself What questions were answered? Which are as yet unanswered? Since it seems I cannot get a simple answer to any of my questions. I am not sure if you are saying that the salafis of today founded by Sheikh Ibn Abdul Wahhab and the original salafs (the first three generations) are the same. If that is the case then I would disagree and I would like you to comment on the speech of King Fahad. Was Sheikh Ibn Abdul Wahhab co-founder of the Saudi State. Just a simple yes or no answer please. If yes please give us the reasons for supporting the Sauds. If the answer is no then why the salafis are not condemning this speech? O you who believe! Stand out for justice, as witnesses to Allah, and even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor.] (An-Nisaa’ 4:134)

NB: the people who respond in these threads are not necessarily (most definitely) including me are not saflaiyia themselves, but are instead just trying to follow the examples of the good people , the prophet and the three generations that followed People are confused with the salafi madhab and the salafi (the three generations). The salafi madhab's founders were Abdulwahhab and Saud. That is what I am trying to point out here that these people are not the same and the salafi madhab of today started calling themselves salafi only about 30 years ago. Why they choose the name salaf? What was the reason behind calling themselves salafs? Why they needed to be called differently than Ahlulsunna wa jammah? I follow Mohammed, the sunnah and the quran and I try and find out the most about that:: How can we follow the Qur'an and the sunnah if we don't want to learn about Islamic History. How can we follow the salafi madhab of today if we don't want to investigate who their leaders are? Even Prophet Mohammad (saw) had to prove his honesty when the order came to proclaim Allah' message. The Prophet (SAWS) climbed Mount Safa one day and called out to all the Quraysh gathered there, "Have you ever heard me tell a lie?" With one voice they replied that they had not. Upon which the Prophet said, "If I tell you that there is hidden behind this mountain a large army ready to attack you, would you believe me?" "Certainly," they all replied, "for we have never heard you tell a lie." Then the Prophet gave them the message of God, and exhorted them to give up idolatry, shun all kinds of evil, and to follow the path of righteousness. He continued to say: "Well! I now tell you important news. O Banu 'Abdu Manaf, O Banu Taym, O Banu Makhzum, O Banu Asad . . . O assembled Qurayshites, redeem your own souls, for I can do nothing for you in God's presence . . .. Listen to what He commanded me to tell you…"

A couple of years ago I asked this question and I was told that Allah is fair and He treats men and women the same way. I was told men will have Hoor al ayn women will also have partners called Ghilmaan. There are several verses in the Qur'an that talk about but I am not sure if this is the correct interpretation. Allah knows best. 52:17-29 And they shall have boys [ghilmaan] circulating among them as if they were hidden pearls. 56:22-23 and dark-eyed ones [hoorun 'eenun], the like of hidden pearls 76:19 And immortal boys [wildaanun mukhalladoona] will circulate among them, when you see them you will count them as scattered pearls. 2:25 And they shall have immaculate partners [azwaajun mutahharatun] in [the gardens] ... 4:57 And they shall have immaculate partners [azwaajun mutahharatun] in them ...

I have hoped that I could finally get some answers from the Salafi in this thread. Unfortunately it always ends up by having someone change the subject altogether. Allah know best. For those of you who don't believe in Tawassul I urge you to ponder on the Qur'an verses. "If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger of God had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-Returning, Most Merciful." (5:64). “O our father, ask forgiveness for our sins, verily we are sinners. He said: ‘Soon I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Verily He is oft-forgiving, most merciful’.†(12:97-98). “On that day shall no intercession avail except of him whom the Beneficent God allows and whose word He is pleased with†(20:109) “And intercession will not avail aught with Him save of him whom He permits†(34:23) “And how many an angel is there in the heavens whose intercession does not avail at all except after Allah has given permission to whom He pleases and chooses†(53:26) “…And they do not intercede except for him whom He approves…†(21:28) “And those whom they call upon besides Him have no authority for intercession, but he who bears witness of the truth and they know (him)†(43:86) This is the time of confusion that the Prophet (saw) has warned us. He told us "What I most fear in my community is a man who interprets verses of the Qur'an out of context." To mizz_s.lander and abu toraab I can only say that we have more similarities than differences and I hope we can respect each other's differences and keep our unity. I conclude with the poet's words A loaf of bread can never be made, From a single head of wheat, But when gathered together and thrashed, It brings out all of its prosperity.

As for now Sakina and Abu Sahal, the point I was making about Abdul-Wahhab vs. Uthami empire should be re-written as As-Saud/Abdul-Wahhab vs Uthami empire. That is because the As-Saud family was there own nation fighting against the Uthamis Abu_toraab which nation are you talking about? Was Najd a nation? On what basis Abdul Wahhab supported the Saudi family according to the sharia? King Fahad's speech Muslims have been happy with the Sharia of Islam ever since it came to rule their affairs and daily lives. In modern history, the first Saudi State was founded on the basis of Islam more than two and a half centuries ago, when two pious reformers, Imam Mohammed Bin Saud and Sheikh Mohammed Bin Abdul-Wahhab (may God have mercy on their souls!) committed themselves to it. If it were not true that the Saud/Abdul Wahhab had an alliance then why the salafis are not condemning this speech and say that he is lying? Please just do an indipendent research on the alliance of the Saud/Abdul Wahhab with open mindedness. The reality is that the Saud needed Abdul Wahhab because people would accept a sheikh reformer easier than a dictator. "O you who have faith! If a profligate (person) should bring you some news, verify it, lest you should visit (harm) on some people out of ignorance, and then become regretful for what you have done." Qur'an (49:6) mizz_S.lander and those of u who are using the likes of Osama bin laden as a role model of what we should do: NB: that salafis have kept their mouth close about him, all they have said is that IF he did step11, then he was wrong and it was not from the sunnah and QUran. many of you should no this, there are guidelines for war and it does not including killing women and children and trees and those who are not fighting you. and a state of war has to be declared which has not been..... so what are u'll supporting him for.....] Have you checked what happened to the women and children of Medina and Makka etc. when the Saudi state supported by Abdul Wahhab waged war on them? What happened to the Uluma of Makka and Medina? And why is it wrong for Osama to wage war ( I do not support Osama at all) but it is alright for the Saudi/Abdul Wahhab to wage war? Don't you agree that Osama is doing the same thing that the Saud/Abdul Wahhab had done in the past? Why the salafi follow this rule only after taking over the cities of the Arabian Peninsula? And please just answer the questions and don't use the exuse that people hate the salafis etc. let's stick to the issues at hand. mizz_S.lander Many ullams have said that every hundred years Allah send someone to revive the sunnah, abdual wahab was one of those It is almost three centuries now who are the 3 reformers that are supposed to come after Abdul Wahhab. in any case, as it is religion, you are all discussing, the basic islamic manners is respect for each other and for others who ur debating about; I agree. We should refrain calling each others names and stick to the issue with proofs and quotations from reliable sources such as King Fahd's speech since it is a famous speech and people cannot deny it's authenticity or from books written by the Salafi or historical facts such as the alliance of the Saud/Abdul Wahhab etc.